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Welcome
Enjoy... But remember
"Don't give in to winning the argument
and losing one of your eternal crowns..."
God bless you...
Enjoy... But remember
"Don't give in to winning the argument
and losing one of your eternal crowns..."
God bless you...
Nope. It's Because Your Food Is Indigestible - Too Much Imagination. Will Stick With The Bible. 
House Church (again!) (Christopher Yip)
Clarifications (RTC)
The NT Model is not Normative, Not Meant to be. (Christopher Yip)
Not normative? On what basis? (RTC)
And Normative on What Basis? (Christopher Yip)
On basis that such was NT practices everywhere in first 300 years (RTC)
Is that therefore biblical? (Christopher Yip)
Yes it is (RTC)
Holds no water (passerby)
You use wrong cup (RTC)
pick up the same dictionary and please enlighten us what it says about Church(n/t)
Church is building for Christian worship (RTC)
Hee...Hee...Can't you even see the obvious contradictions to your arguments???(n/t) 
Hi Anon, 
biblical?
Let's see if you pass the biblical test (RTC)
Easton Bible Dictionary says...
Thayer's Greek Definition of Ekklesia (Christopher Yip)
Still got more (RTC)
Not Much Point in going further ... (Christopher Yip)
The same point (RTC)
OK, One Last Shot (Christopher Yip)
Missed by a long shot? (RTC)
Perhaps it'sYou? Food for thought. (Christopher Yip)
More food on the table (RTC)
Your Food is Giving Me Indigestion :-)) (Christopher Yip)
That's because you are not chewing! (RTC)
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Since I can't seem to get through to RTC, I will have to stop here. It is my view, after so many posts, that he is still interacting only with his biased opinions about the churches and not what we really are. I regret that he can't see that the same problems plague house churches. The discussion is turning into sophistry.
Since I have mentioned Calvin's Institutes and also the strong foundation he laid for Protestant ecclesiology, I would like to give an example of biblical ecclesiology in practice in the churches. This will provide the reader with something more concrete. Actually information can easily be obtained by studying the constitution of the various churches. I do not know much about the Shiloh Christian Church in the following. I am quoting them only for the article below. Happy Reading! It's a series of 5 articles. I post 4 here. It's long but really it is only the in-between spaces. The exposition of Scripture is worth the time. Christopher Source: http://shilohcc.com/bulletin/index.html. Emphasis is mine.
Authority of the Church "Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct." Hebrews 13:7 "Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not grief, for that would be unprofitable to you." Hebrews 13:17 The church, like the other spheres of ordained government, family and state, has seen her role in authority diminished and her purpose somewhat disregarded. Though membership to the church is acquired on a voluntary basis, it needs to be understood that it was God’s will that the church be established and it is apparent that believers are called to enjoin themselves to, as well as to submit to, the authority of that institution. The Christian must begin to understand how each form of government relates to his life and to properly abide by the regulations placed on him by each, without submitting to tyranny in any case; and in all cases, with respect to his need for complete and willful obedience to God. (This is a good first step in reconstructing society.) Charles Hodge (Systematic Theology, Vol. III) states the case for obedience to the church as it pertains to the Fifth Commandment, obedience to superiors, and submission to law. According to Hodge, "The principles which regulate our obedience to the church are very much the same as those which concern our relation to the state." (Note: I have abbreviated the content doing my best not to diminish the teaching found within!)
This means that if the actions of the church are in agreement with scripture, we should obey them. If they are contrary to the word of God or go beyond it, we disregard it. If the church declares by its authority, something to be true that we know to be sin or false doctrine, then it must be exposed and disobeyed. We must obey God rather than men. The Church was established by God; this was part of His Providential plan that speaks of His infinite love and wisdom and desire for order. It was His plan to ordain ministers, to carry out His authority on earth, through the teaching of the Word, through ruling over and shepherding His flock, and by providing the established pattern of worship that He demands for Himself (2nd Commandment) as well as providing themselves as an example of the faithfulness that He requires.(Heb.13:7)The apostle Paul tells us in verse 17 of the 13th chapter of Hebrews that we are to submit to our elders who watch out for our souls because they are accountable for us. For our own good, we are to allow them to rule with joy, and not grief. Through our desire and ability to be self-governing and well versed in our responsibilities before God, respective to all three spheres of government under Him, we can accomplish this!! Authority of the Church Part II: "Qualifications of the Elders" Or "Who are the Elders?" By Sheryl Ferroni "This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of bishop, he desireth good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. More over he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil." I Timothy 3:1-7The value of elders (or pastors) in the church cannot be underestimated. As God's special ministers, it is their duty (like the father to his household, and the magistrate to the civil government) to ensure that God's authority is upheld and preserved in the church. It is evident that eldership is a high calling. An elder is required to possess the necessary skills that enable him to teach, lead, and protect the membership of the church, and yet he is constrained from running the people's lives (I Peter 5:2,3). It is likewise wrong for the people to become so dependent on their elders that they desire or request them to run their lives. Though some denominations in the church have sought to make distinctions among the elders in a given church (ruling vs. teaching elders), I see no scriptural basis for it. We see the words bishop, elder, and pastor used interchangeably (Acts 20, Titus 15:9, I Peter 5:1,2).The qualifications for eldership are delineated in I Timothy 3, and apply to all those seeking or desiring the position, which Scripture calls "a good work" (v. 1). Following is a synopsis of the defining qualities that constitute an elder. A "bishop" (for the sake of continuity I will refer to pastors and elders as bishops since that is the title used here) must be blameless (v. 2). This does not mean without sin. It means he is not engaged in overt, flagrant on-going sin that would disqualify him from leadership. He needs to maintain his Christian conduct to be a good example to the people. A bishop is to be the "husband of one wife." He is to be chaste and morally pure. It does not mean that a man needs to be married to hold a position of leadership in the church (though certainly age and experience in leadership [i.e. head of household (v. 4)] would seem helpful in the calling). A bishop is to be vigilant. It is his duty to be alert and watchful of his flock. He is to be sober, that is to say serious about the matters of the church.A bishop is required to be of good behavior; he is to be orderly and self-disciplined. He is to be given to hospitality; he is to be an example in his home. I believe that not only is the elder an example to the people, but because he is to demonstrate his ability to rule his family well, his wife and children are looked to as examples as well. This is not a license to pick the bishop’s family apart and to needlessly go looking for faults. It is rather an opportunity to witness their character and to learn from their example.A bishop must be apt (able) to teach; this is the distinguishing mark of a pastor. It is his obligation to labor (work exhaustively) to bring God’s word to His people and to effectively admonish (instruct, warn) them in the way of truth and righteousness (I Thess. 5, 12, 13). A bishop is not given to wine (v. 3). In order to be a clear thinker, the bishop does not give himself over to vices. (Drunkenness is sin and the prohibition against it applies to all people.) He is to be non-violent (no striker). It is important that an elder be able to control his temper and actions in the most serious and tense situations. He is never to resort to brawling as a means of resolution.The bishop is not greedy of filthy lucre and is not covetous. He is not to be motivated by a desire for wealth or material gain, but by a desire to serve God. Scripture is clear that our elders are to be paid well (I Cor. 9:7-14), and we need to ensure that they are lacking nothing.The bishop must rule his family well. If his desire is to lead the church well, then it is essential that he be able to lead his family well. The elders’ children are to be faithful (I Titus 5:6) and their conduct should reflect their faith in Christ for salvation. This should certainly be the goal for all Christian parents, not exclusively preachers’ children. Children are to be subordinate to the rules of the home and in submission to their parents while they are living at home. It is important that all children are respectful, properly disciplined, and well-mannered.A bishop cannot be a novice, or new to the Christian faith. It is important that our leaders be wrought with experience, and maturity, both spiritually and physically. The term elder refers to one who is older, who through his own growth and through witnessing the growth of others over time has gained wisdom and maturity. We are warned that a novice could easily become so enamored with the position or puffed up with pride as to fall into the same condemnation as Satan. Remember that the result of Satan’s pride and desire for power was his being cast into Hell (Is. 14:12-15).Lastly, a bishop must have a good testimony with those who are outside the church. Our pastor must wear his collar (symbolically speaking, of course!) into the unbelieving community that surrounds him if he is to have any impact on the culture. It is important that his good reputation and authority precede him as he boldly proclaims the gospel to the world. It is imperative that we acknowledge that a legitimate call to the eldership in the church is a good thing indeed. It is not for the weak, the lazy, the easily offended, or the prideful. It is only for those who have received a true urging from the Holy Spirit to undertake this work, for by no other means could one possibly meet the criteria outlined in the Scriptures. Authority of the Church Part III: Authority of the Elders - The Prescription for Church Discipline By Sheryl Ferroni "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace. Of the increase of His government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of Hosts will perform this." Isaiah 9:6-7In our nation we have witnessed that when there is a dereliction of biblical discipline in the family, insubordination and moral decline ensue. We know that when the civil sphere of government abandons its duty to punish wrongdoing as prescribed in Scripture, crime and injustice prevail. But what happens when the church, through her administrators, neglects its God-ordained duty to apply discipline in the ecclesiastical realm of government? Can we not expect to suffer like consequences when church discipline is either neglected or, worse yet, non-existent? The church is given a definitive role in administering discipline. The church’s duty is to excommunicate (expel from communion) or sanction notorious, unrepentant offenders, as a last resort after the provisions of Matthew 18 have been applied and rejected. Excommunication moves the former church member from that of good standing to the status of a non-believer, or a heathen.In Titus 3:10, we are told to reject a man that is a heretic (one who holds to teaching that is diametrically opposed to the orthodox faith that Christians embrace) after the first and second admonitions (warnings), and 1 Corinthians 5:11 says we are "not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer (one who insults or reproaches with contemptuous language), or an extortioner." Paul is talking here about judging those within the church (by the use of the word "brother"), and not those outside the church (that is the duty of the civil magistrate) whom the church does not judge. It seems clear that the church is to reject unrepentant, consistently sinning members in the church, marking them as outsiders who need to be covenantally restored through repentance. Through excommunication, the violator becomes acutely aware of his stand before God and the church witnesses the judgment that befalls unrepentant sinners, who after at least twice being warned to turn away from their evil ways, do not repent. We understand that Christ is the Head of the Church and it is He who has ordained that the elders (or officers) be given the power and authority over discipline in His church. When one seeks to enjoin himself to the church, he is received after the making of simple profession of faith in Jesus Christ (belief that He is God’s Son, that He was born of a virgin, and that He alone atones for sin). At the same time, he is agreeing to submit to the authority and discipline of the church, which is administered by her officers. To better understand the roles that the officers play in legislating in the church, we will turn to Charles Hodge’s Study of the Nature of Christ’s Kingdom, 1871."Christ has ordained that the power of exercising discipline and the other prerogatives in the church should be in the hands of the officials (elders), having certain gifts and qualifications and duly appointed. "That the right to judge of the qualifications of such officers is vested in, or rather belongs to, those who by the Holy Ghost have themselves been called to be office-bearers. That such officers are not lords over God’s heritage, but servants. Their authority is restricted to proscribed limits." It is apparent that Hodge believed that a system of ecclesiastical hierarchy, or an association of churches linked through officers or elders, comprise a lawful, ecclesiastical government. Because the elders of any church are given so much responsibility, i.e., the power to censure, it is best for the church that there be a reasonable mechanism for them to receive beneficial consultation with other qualified ministers (Proverbs 11:4) as well as the provision for the church members, should it be necessary, for a court of appeals or to address complaints of maladministration. Through assemblies or counsels, such as our own AFRC (Association of Free Reformed Churches), these needs are easily met, not only by providing the people with a recourse of action, but also by holding elders accountable to a higher earthly authority, as well as affording them protection from injustice. Chapter 31 of the Westminster Confession of Faith details the need for synods and councils. In Matthew 16:19, we learn about the "Keys of the Kingdom" of heaven. The "keys" represent authority given to the officers in the church that enables them to deal with sin as a means of keeping Christ’s church pure. The keys open the Kingdom to penitent sinners and "shut" it to unpenitent sinners. The only basis for judging sin is accorded to the principles delineated in God’s Word. It is not for the elders to determine for themselves good and evil, as is human nature, but to be administrators only of God’s Law.R.J. Rushdoony explains the ministerial power to "bind and loose" in his Systematic Theology, Vol. II, in this manner: "No man can set aside God’s Law, it is the canon, or rule, of the church. Churchmen are called to administer that law: not to alter or supplant it … there can be no binding nor loosening apart from God’s Law Word. To confess Christ and to be of the Rock means to minister in His Name, to be faithful to His Law Word, and to further His Kingdom and Dominion as bond-servants." We need to view church discipline, the root of which is ‘disciple,’ in a positive sense. Our elders are not given power to lord over or unjustly punish the people, but are given the necessary power to take dominion for Christ through their service to Him. Remember that the goal of church discipline is restoration. This is accomplished through forgiveness offered by the offended, and the repentance of and restitution being made by the offender.As we review Matthew 18, we see that before the church is ever involved, the offended has a personal responsibility to go to his brother and tell him his fault alone (Note: through our ability and desire to follow God’s commandments, we know that we are to strive not to offend our brother in the first place!). If he hears you (v. 15), you have gained a brother, but if he doesn’t, you are to go back, taking one or two brothers with you (v. 16). Only if that measure fails are we to take the issue to the church (v. 17), her officers/our pastors, which will then see him either restored, or put out of the church. Going straight to the pastor with a problem directly violates the prescription for restoration and predictably places him in an improper role as administrator before due process has been observed, thus forcing him to abrogate the aforementioned policy. The offending brother, the lost sheep spoken of in Matthew 18:11-14, must be given our primary concern, not the offended whose desire is for personal vindication. We must all seek to do God’s will and thus should be seeking to bring our wandering brother back into the fellowship of believers. However, if a straying brother shows himself to be a goat instead of a sheep, then we have a responsibility to distance ourselves from him. It is at that time, that it becomes the duty of the church, represented by her elders, to proceed in officially censuring him. The Westminster Confession, concerning censures, Chapter 30, Section 2, states: "Church censures are necessary, for the reclaiming and regaining of offended brethren, for deterring others from the like offenses, for purging out of that leaven which might infect the whole lump, for vindicating the honour of Christ, and the holy profession of the gospel, and for preventing the wrath of God which might justly fall upon the church if they should suffer His covenant and the seals thereof to be profaned by notorious and obstinate offenders." Our compassionate, loving, Everlasting Father cares for His people and disciplines them on His own terms. Our church officials have been given the "keys of the kingdom"; the state, the power of the sword; and the family the authority to disinherit ungodly children, all as a means of accomplishing His justice on earth particular to their individual spheres of rule. We are called to abide unquestioning. In the end, we acknowledge that it is Jesus who will come in glory to judge the quick and the dead.Authority in the Church Part IV: Wisdom from the Westminster Divines, 1646, Concerning Hierarchy and Responsibility By Sheryl Ferroni Q. 124: Who are meant by father and mother in the fifth commandment? A: By father and mother, in the fifth commandment, are meant, not only natural parents, but all superiors in age and gifts; and especially such as, by God’s ordinance, are over us in place of authority, whether in family, church, or commonwealth. Q. 125: Why are superiors stiled Father and Mother? A: Superiors are stiled Father and Mother, both to teach them in all duties toward their Inferiors, like natural parents, to express love and tenderness to them, according to their several relations; and to work inferiors to a greater willingness and cheerfulness in performing their duties to their superiors, as to their parents. Q. 126: What in the general scope of the fifth commandment? A: The general scope of the fifth commandment is, the performance of those duties which we mutually owe in our several relations, as inferiors, superiors, or equals. -Westminster Larger Catechism, 1648. Unless a man’s children are being taught and principled in the home, what hope is there that they will grow and flourish in the church? When we neglect our responsibility as parents to instruct our children in the Way of the Lord and the authority structure He has instituted in the family, church, and state, we can only expect to raise children who neither revere God nor the officers (father and mother, pastors and elders, civil magistrate) that He has charged with carrying out His rule on earth. It is through discipline and instruction in the family that future officers are trained, whether that be for their role as parents, or pastors, or governors, or any combination thereof.When the Westminster Divines assembled in Edinburgh, they were determined to give heads of families, (parents) a tool with which to instruct their families, teaching them to observe the primary principles of God’s laws. These pastors, having a great amount of understanding concerning God’s Word, lamented the fact that fathers, whom God charges with the duty to discipline and instruct their children, had little knowledge of the Scriptures, if any, themselves. How then could they teach their children? A concerted effort was begun to reconcile the father to his duty under God, and in so doing, spare the church and her members from the ill effects of the rampant heresies of the day as well as the snares of the devil that would certainly trip up those whose foundations were not firmly established in the Word of God. Thomas Manton, the great 17th century Puritan said, [there is] "…the general complaint concerning the decay of power of godliness, and more especially the great corruption of youth (remember, this is mid-1600’s!), wherever thou goest thou wilt hear men crying out of bad children and bad servants; where as indeed the source of the mischief must be sought a little higher: it is bad parents and bad masters that make bad children and bad servants; and we cannot blame so much their intowardness, as our own negligence in their education." If we expect great things to happen in the church and in the state, we must start making great things happen in our homes. The Puritans had much greater understanding of God’s grace and Providence than we, their 21st century counterparts. Our lack of understanding can be blamed in part on 19th century Pietism and its effects: short-term thinking and an unquenchable thirst for personal gratification and importance. The balance of the blame centers on our own lack of diligence in performing our duties as delineated in the Scriptures. If we continue to neglect our duty to "train up a child" through our own example, as well as ensuring that our children are held accountable to the Law of God, we can expect continued decline in the church and state, as well as in our families. If we are to liberate our society from the clutches of Humanism, it is imperative that we recognize God’s sovereignty in every single area of life and submit to the authority structure He has instituted. It is only through the preaching of the Gospel, Christ-directed prayer, and adherence to and promotion of the Ten Commandments in the civil realm that we will claim the world for our Lord Jesus Christ.Our pastors are our fathers in the church, and because of their standing we owe them honor, even double honor (1 Timothy 5:17); they are our superiors. It is therefore our duty to show reverence to them through our thoughts, words, and deeds concerning them. A father who does not command due respect in his home receives grief and frustration instead of love and honor from his children. Likewise in the church, our actions characterize the thoughts of our hearts; if we refuse to consciously submit to authority in the church then our deeds will betray us. Our supreme duty is obedience to God, as servants of Christ doing the will of God from our hearts (Ephesians 6:6-7). We honor God when we honor those whom He has placed in authority over us. So, how do we honor our pastors? We are to cover them in love, pray for them (1 Timothy 2:1-2), trust them (Titus 2:9-10), imitate them (Phil.3:17), obey them (1 Peter 2:13-14), accept their correction (Heb.7:9), and be thankful to God for them Manton, commenting on an anonymous work by a fellow minister said: "Having bewailed the great distractions, corruptions, and divisions that are in the church he thus represents the cause and the cure: among others a principal cause of these mischief’s is the great and common neglect of governors of families, in the discharge of that duty which they owe to God for the souls that are under their charge, especially in teaching them the doctrine of Christianity. Families are societies that must be sanctified by God as well as Churches: and the governors of them have as truly a charge of the souls that are therein as pastors have of the churches. But alas, how little this is considered or regarded! But while negligent ministers are (deservedly) cast out of their places, the negligent masters of families take themselves to be almost blameless. They offer their children to God in Baptism, and there they promise to teach them the doctrine of the gospel, and bring them up in the nurture of the Lord; but they easily promise, and break it; and educate their children for the world although they have renounced these, and dedicated them to God. This covenant breaking with God, and betraying the souls of their children to the devil, must lie heavy on them here or hereafter. They beget children, and keep families, merely for the world but little consider what a charge is committed them, and what it is to bring up a child for God, and govern a family as a sanctified society. O how sweetly and successfully would the work of God go on, if we would but join together in our several places to promote it." |
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Messages
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If you really stick to Bible, you won't get the IC today! by RTC, 2001, Jun 15
We stuck with the Bible and we got BOTH the IC and HC! by Christopher Yip, 2001, Jun 15
Only by twisting and turning, not by sound exegesis! by RTC, 2001, Jun 15
Here's Yet Another One of Your Blind Spots! by Christopher Yip, 2001, Jun 15
That spot already cleared, the blind spot is in your position by RTC, 2001, Jun 17
House Church (Again)! by PARROT, 2001, Jun 19
Something else for you to Parrot by RTC, 2001, Jun 20
Awck! Awck! RTC! RTC! PARROT KING!, 2001, Jun 26
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