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Enjoy... But remember
"Don't give in to winning the argument
and losing one of your eternal crowns..."
God bless you...
Enjoy... But remember
"Don't give in to winning the argument
and losing one of your eternal crowns..."
God bless you...
Jason - I too agree unity is important BUT NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF BIBLICAL TRUTH 
Reconciliation, Towards Unity - Anglicans: With Catholics, Lutherans, Methodists, Orthodox, Baptists, Pentecostals, etc (Matthew Tan Yew Hock)
Read between the lines. A case of the Anglican-RC dialogue. (Christopher Yip)
Time for Anti-Catholic Mr. Yip to wake up from his out-dated-ness 
I agree with unity for the churches (Jason S)
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Jason,
It's disappointing and frustrating to read on one hand your apology and then to find in another place the same rhetoric. Before you call Roman Catholics your brothers, or perhaps soon call the Roman Catholic Church your sister church, consider the following. Think and reflect carefully what they say. The Dominus Iesus has not been retracted: http://www.lcms.org/president/statements/vaticandi.asp A LUTHERAN Response to the Vatican Declaration, "Dominus Iesus" (Statement from the Office of the President) A Statement by Dr. A. L. Barry President of The Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod (St. Louis, September 15, 2000)-- The Vatican's recent assertion that "there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him," came as a surprise to many in today's ecumenical climate. But this claim is neither new nor surprising. Rome is merely restating its historic position. The Christian Church on earth is one, holy, universal and apostolic, not because it is the Roman Church, or has a pope, but because it is Christ's church. The church is the assembly of all believers in which the gospel is taught purely and the sacraments are administered rightly. God the Holy Spirit calls, gathers, enlightens and sanctifies the whole Christian Church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true faith. In this Christian Church, He daily and richly forgives our sins and the sins of all believers. The Bishop of Rome is not the head of all Christendom by divine right on the basis of God's Word. The church cannot be better ruled and preserved than by living together under one head, Jesus Christ, united in teaching, faith, sacraments, prayers, and works of love. Therefore, we Lutherans continue to reject these claims of the Roman Catholic Church and the Bishop of Rome as contrary to Sacred Scripture. With many other Christian churches, we express our deep regret and profound disagreement with this statement by the Vatican. 5 September 2000 – The Daily Telegraph http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=002549632124328&pg=/et/00/9/5/wvat05.html CAREY dismisses Vatican attack on 'deficient' faiths. By P J Bonthrone THE Archbishop of Canterbury has rejected a Vatican Declaration that the Church of England is not, along with other Protestant churches, a "proper" church and that its orders or Eucharist are deficient. Dr George Carey said in a statement: "Of course the Church of England, and the Anglican Communion, does not for one moment accept that its orders of ministry and Eucharist are deficient in any way. It believes itself to be a part of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church of Christ." The Archbishop was responding to the Declaration Dominus Iesus, to be published in Rome today, which also says that non-Christian faiths are "gravely deficient" and their rituals "an obstacle to salvation". Other Christian churches and representatives of other faiths have greeted the Vatican's document with reactions ranging from disappointment to stoicism. The Declaration is written by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith who is the guardian of Roman Catholic orthodoxy. It has the full authority of the Pope. Publication follows news of a letter from the Cardinal to Catholic bishops, forbidding them from using the term "sister churches" to refer to Protestant faiths. The letter said such "sloppy terminology" diminished the Roman Catholic Church's position of pre-eminence as "the mother of all churches". Dr Carey said in a statement issued from Lambeth Palace last night: "The idea that Anglican and other churches are not 'proper churches' seems to question the considerable ecumenical gains we have made. It is important that we recognise and celebrate ecumenical progress. It is a task to which I remain fully committed on behalf of both the Church of England and the worldwide Anglican Communion." (I stop here for brevity. You can read the rest of the news at the url) By accepting ecumenical unity with Roman Catholicism, please ask yourself: are you then accepting 1. Salvation is through Rome ALONE: "It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart "into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" ..." (Council of Florence, 14th Council of the Roman Catholic Church" 2. The Pope must be OBEYED or else you lose your salvation: "Furthermore, that every human creature is subject to the Roman pontiff,—this we declare, say, define, and pronounce to be altogether necessary to salvation" (Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam) 3. EVERY dogma of Rome MUST be BELIEVED or else you lose your salvation: "Further, all those things are to be believed with divine and Catholic faith which are contained in the Word of God, written or handed down, and which the Church, either by a solemn judgement, or by her ordinary and universal magisterium, proposes for belief as having been divinely revealed. And since, without faith, it is impossible to please God, and to attain to the fellowship of his children, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will any one obtain eternal life unless he shall have persevered in faith unto the end (Dogmatic Decrees of the Vatican Council I, On Faith, Chapter III) 4. Salvation is ONLY through participation in Rome's sacraments, all 7 of them: "If any one saith that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation...and that without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain from God, through faith alone, the grace of justification...let him be anathema" (The Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent. Canon IV). If anyone saith, that the sacraments of the New Law were not all instituted by Jesus Christ, our Lord; or that they are more, or less, than seven, namely, Baptism, Confirmation, the Eucharist, Penance, Extreme Unction, Order and Matrimony; or that any of these seven is not truly and properly a sacrament: let him be anathema. (The Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent. Canon I). 5. Good works MERIT eternal life (salvation that is): "If any one saith, that the good works of the one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, and does not truly merit increase in grace, eternal life, and the attainment of eternal life, if so be, that he depart in grace, and an increase in glory, let him be anathema (The Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent. Decree on Justification, Chapter VII, Canons X, XXXII). If you say no and yet think there can be ecumenical unity, obviously you are not talking about ECUMENICAL UNITY but rather just civil acceptance of each other's existence, that is, we will practice tolerance. But mutual tolerance is NOT the unity that Christ desired for His Church. He desired a unity sanctified in His Word, in Truth! And if you say yes and still call yourself an Anglican, then I would just remind you what is said in the 39 Articles to which all Anglicans subscribe: Article 6 - Of the Sufficiency of the holy Scriptures for salvation Holy Scripture containeth all things necessary to salvation: so that whatsoever is not read therein, nor may be proved thereby, is not to be required of any man, that it should be believed as an article of the Faith, or be thought requisite or necessary to salvation. In the name of the holy Scripture we do understand those Canonical Books of the Old and New Testament, of whose authority was never any doubt in the Church... (list of the 66 books) And the other books (as Hierome saith) the Church doth read for example of life and instruction of manners; but yet doth it not apply them to establish any doctrine: such are these following: (list of the apocrypha) All the Books of the New Testament, as they are commonly received, we do receive, and account them Canonical. Article 11 - Of the Justification of Man We are accounted righteous before God, only for the merit of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ by Faith, and not for our own works or deservings: Wherefore, that we are justified by Faith only is a most wholesome Doctrine, and very full of comfort, as more largely is expressed in the Homily of Justification. Article 12 - Of Good Works Albeit that Good Works, which are the fruits of Faith, and follow after Justification, cannot put away our sins, and endure the severity of God's Judgement; yet are they pleasing and acceptable to God in Christ, and do spring out necessarily of a true and lively Faith; insomuch that by them a lively Faith may be as evidently known as a tree discerned by the fruit. Article 16 - Of Sin after Baptism (Chris: No Penance) Not every deadly sin willingly committed after Baptism is sin against the Holy Ghost, and unpardonable. Wherefore the grant of repentance is not to be denied to such as fall into sin after Baptism. After we have received the Holy Ghost, we may depart from grace given, and fall into sin, and by the grace of God we may arise again, and amend our lives. And therefore they are to be condemned , which say, they can no more sin as long as they live here, or deny the place of forgiveness to such as truly repent. Article 20 - Of the Authority of the Church (Chris: No infallibility) The Church hath power to decree Rites or Ceremonies, and authority in Controversies of Faith: And yet it is not lawful for the Church to ordain any thing that is contrary to God's Word written, neither may it so expound one place of Scripture, that it be repugnant to another. Wherefore, although the Church be a witness and keeper of holy Writ, yet, as it ought not to decree anything against the same, so besides the same ought it not to enforce any thing to be believed for necessity of Salvation. Article 21 - Of the Authority of General Councils General Councils may not be gathered together without the commandment and will of Princes. And when they be gathered together, (forasmuch as they be an assembly of men, whereof all be not governed with the Spirit and Word of God,) they may err, and sometimes have erred, even in things pertaining unto God. Wherefore things ordained by them as necessary to salvation have neither strength nor authority, unless it may be declared that they be taken out of holy Scripture. Article 22 - Of Purgatory The Romish Doctrine concerning Purgatory, Pardons, Worshipping, and Adoration, as well of Images as of Reliques, and also invocation of Saints, is a fond thing vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture, but rather repugnant to the Word of God. Article 25 - Of the Sacraments Sacraments ordained of Christ be not only badges or tokens of Christian men's profession, but rather they be certain sure witnesses, and effectual signs of grace, and God's good will towards us, by the which he doth work invisibly in us, and doth not only quicken, but also strengthen and confirm our Faith in him. There are two Sacraments ordained of Christ our Lord in the Gospel, that is to day, Baptism, and the Supper of the Lord. Those five commonly called Sacraments, that is to say, Confirmation, Penance, Orders, Matrimony, and extreme Unction, are not to be counted for Sacraments of the Gospel, being such as have grown partly of the corrupt following of the Apostles, partly are states of life allowed in the Scriptures; but yet have not like nature of Sacraments with Baptism, and the Lord's Supper, for that they have not any visible sign or ceremony ordained of God. The Sacraments were not ordained of Christ to be gazed upon, or to be carried about, but that we should duly use them. And in such only as worthily receive the same they have a wholesome effect or operation: but they that receive them unworthily purchase to themselves damnation, as Saint Paul saith. Article 28 - Of the Lord's Supper The Supper of the Lord is not only a sign of the love that Christians ought to have among themselves one to another; but rather it is a Sacrament of our Redemption by Christ's death: insomuch that to such as rightly, worthily, and with faith, receive the same, the Bread which we break is a partaking of the Body of Christ; and likewise the Cup of Blessing is a partaking of the Blood of Christ. Transubstantiation (or the change of the substance of Bread and Wine) in the Supper of the Lord, cannot be proved by Holy Write; but it is repugnant to the plain words of Scripture, overthroweth the nature of a Sacrament, and hath given occasion to many superstitions. The Body of Christ is given, taken, and eaten, in the Supper, only after an heavenly and spiritual manner. And the means whereby the Body of Christ is received and eaten in the Supper is Faith. The Sacrament of the Lord's Supper was not by Christ's ordinance reserved, carried about, lifted up, or worshipped. ---------------- Perhaps you didn't realise the implications of your own declaration: "Dear brother Matthew, I am an Anglican member and strongly agree what you are trying to tell brother Christopher lately. He attacked on my feedback lately. Indeed the Catholics and Anglican are linked directly in history. Are you an Anglican or Catholic? If you believe in the Lord, you are my brother in Christ! Please email me and we can keep in touch! Faith is what it really matter! Not arguements and using biblical truths as tools to attack on one another on misinterpretation!" I want to quote the entire chapter of 2 Timothy 3 but for brevity, I have only this for you Jason: "But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;" (v 13-14 KJV) There is a time to be STUBBORN for the things of God. Christopher
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Messages
Outline:
The never ending.........Is there Peace? by Jason S, 2001, Jun 06
Jason - are you interested in TRUTH or just FOLKLORE? by Christopher Yip, 2001, Jun 07 
What I mean is............Harmless by Jason S, 2001, Jun 07
"Frog in the well"? Interesting. by Christopher Yip, 2001, Jun 08 
R C I A by Jason S, 2001, Jun 07
Sorry to hear that. by Christopher Yip, 2001, Jun 08
Dominus Iesus and William Webster's passages by Matthew Tan Yew Hock, 2001, Jun 12
Dominus Iesus is a Re-Statement of Vatican II - No Salvation Outside Rome by Christopher Yip, 2001, Jun 12
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