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Welcome
Enjoy... But remember
"Don't give in to winning the argument
and losing one of your eternal crowns..."
God bless you...
Enjoy... But remember
"Don't give in to winning the argument
and losing one of your eternal crowns..."
God bless you...
It can happen anytime, just don't get caught dead without Jesus!
What happens when we die? (Confused)
Ah, science to the rescue again (Interested )
Hi Interested, what did St Peter said about time? (eom) (Seeker)
Hi Seeker (Interested )
Things Creationists Hate 
Answers to Things Creationists Hate (edmund)
Theodicy (Seeker)
Problem solved, God is good! (Benjamin)
God is good, but evil still exists, it's not solved (Seeker)
Evil still exist, but not for long (Benjamin)
Good, hopefully not for too long (Seeker)
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Hi Seeker: Seeker: Is evil a flaw? Assuming the answer is yes, does freedom of choice leads to evil (as Interested said in the other post)? If yes, it is a flaw. However, if evil is not a flaw, then we are in whole new ballgame, with a whole new set of problems. Benjamin: The question is “Is freedom of choice a flaw?” which I don’t think you have answered it in a straightforward manner. Consequences are always bound up with choices, are you saying that because it can lead to a bad choice, therefore the initial freedom to choose is a flaw? Seeker: >>>Should God be faulted for giving man free choice?<<< If doing so will necessarily and knowingly result in evil and suffering, yes. Benjamin: Are you then arguing that man should not have been given free will? Seeker: >>>Is this issue and the resolution of this issue first and foremost critical and central to your decision to embrace Christ?<<< Among others, yes. If it defies my logic, it would be impossible to believe in it. Benjamin: Are you of the opinion that only when you can comprehend something fully then you will commit yourself to it? We don’t do that in our everyday life for we make allowance for imperfect knowledge and unanswered questions in our daily decisions simply because of our own limitations. Because if full comprehension is your criteria for decision making, I wish you the best and a very long life. ; P Seeker: >>>God’s higher ways means that it defies our human wisdom.<<< As I told Edmund in the other post, I cannot understand this. On one hand, we are supposedly given intelligence to think and make our own decisions. On the other, we are not intelligent enough to understand god's higher ways, thereby restricting information flow and hindering our ability to make the right decisions. Puzzling. Benjamin: Let’s not confuse human with deity. No doubt God has made us intelligent, but He did not make us omniscient! There are limitations to human capabilities by design. These are not flaws as some evolutionists would want to argue. I have even debated with an evolutionist who sneered at how lousy our human eyes were. But he couldn’t even tell me what kind of eyes he would prefer or which is more superior. I asked whether the eyes of a fly would suffice and he never answered. God did not restrict information flow as much as He wanted us to trust Him for the things that are mysteries waiting to be revealed or which might take the other side of eternity to unravel. I would think that if God would have put down in words everything pertaining to freewill, predestination, evil, creation, you would not even want to imagine the size of such a book, much less endure reading through it! What is revealed in the Bible is sufficient for anyone to come to know Him, it is not designed as a Q&A book or the Unexplained Solved book. That’s something you have to bear in mind. Don’t make it too onerous than it you can bear. Seeker: Well, this "caricature" of a lovey dovey god is painted by christians, theologians and the bible. Since I don't believe yet, I couldn't have come up with it. Benjamin: I am of the opinion that anyone reading the Bible would not come to a conclusion that God is all lovey dovey. Even if you did not come out with it, it seems that you are entertaining such a thought. Seeker: >>>You must not emphasize God’s love and mercy at the expense of God’s holiness and righteousness.<<< That's why I said that that is a logical problem in the theology of the christian god. His natures don't add up. Benjamin: That’s not quite right. Look at yourself, you can get angry with your children one moment and then love them the next moment. Are you having a personality crisis? Will you say that your own natures don’t add up? I hope not! But rather we are showing different facets of personality when we relate to people in different circumstances. God has given us attributes which are a reflection of His, that’s why we have an innate sense of justice and the ability to love. Can evolutionary theory explain these things adequately? Seeker: >>>Should the Judge of the world fail to exercise justice?<<< No, he shouldn't fail to exercise justice. But is submitting mankind to evil and suffering for something that I feel he has a hand in, considered justice? Benjamin: That’s your perception. The Bible is clear that in God there is no sin. Our inability to comprehend free will and predestination should not be cause for accusing God, for He is the Judge, not us. Only someone greater than God can judge Him, I hope you don’t think you fit the bill. : ) Seeker: Would you decry a judge for punishing the mass murderer PLUS all his family and descendents for generations to come? Especially if the judge is partly responsible in the first place, for allowing him to be instigated into committing the offence by another convicted mass murderer? Benjamin: Not if the judge can give a good reason for doing that. But you forgot something, God has said clearly that the soul who sin shall die. Is there anyone you know of, including yourself, that can stand before God and demand that He admit you are innocent of all sin? What does the Bible says about God, that He delights in the death of His creation? Listen to how God will answer you in Ezekiel 18:20-32, I have taken some liberty with the parties for dramatic effect, God: The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself. But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die. All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live. Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked rather than that he should turn from his ways and live? But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die. Seeker: The way of the Lord is not right. God: Hear now, O Seeker! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die. Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life. Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. Seeker: The way of the Lord is not right. God: Are My ways not right, O Seeker? Is it not your ways that are not right? Therefore I will judge you, according to your conduct. Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O Seeker? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord God. "Therefore, repent and live." Benjamin: If you have read the above, I’m sure you can appreciate that God is not an ogre or sadistic deity who delights in the sufferings of His creation. Seeker: >>>But just because there are unanswered questions do not mean that there is no God. At most it is an aspect of God that we cannot comprehend.<<< I can accept that. Hence, the problem with the logical problem of theodicy vis-a-vis the christian god. Like evolution, it does not disprove god. But it poses certain challenges to certain aspects of the christian god. Benjamin: I can accept that too. I have entertained such questions myself too. But I trust in God’s goodness, trusting Him to do what is right, to be true to Himself as the righteous Judge. Seeker: >>>One thing for sure, it there was ever a better way to solve the problem than that which He has effected, God would have beaten you to it.<<< Yes, of course, UNLESS there is no god in the first place that is. Benjamin: Which is what you will have to prove if that is a statement you are making. Seeker: >>>If God simply eradicate the problem of evil, we will all end up in hell instantly. Is that your idea of a solution?<<< I don't see why it has to be so. Benjamin: Well think about it. If you do not claim to be free from evil, then for God to deal with evil, He can’t overlook you, can He? If the devil deserves a lake of fire in hell, that doesn’t leave you with a lesser fate. Seeker: If there is no evil in the first place, there would be no Hitler. Or Hitler could have been Mother Teresa if not for the inherent flaw of freewill. Moreover, according to this freewill theology, Hitler is a mere byproduct of the freewill script. It is not he who have to make reparations but the script writer of this whole episode. Benjamin: But the fact is that there is a Hitler. So there is evil. And if there is evil, then there is good. If we can define what is good and evil, we are assuming the existence of a moral standard, which presupposes a moral law-giver. So you still end up with this God. Was Hitler a byproduct of freewill theology? You have to prove then that Hitler was acting involuntary. In fact, Hitler was a by product of evolution. Are all evolutionists to be blamed? No, but evolution provides the worldview that is consistent with Hitler’s atrocious acts. Seeker: >>>You will have to think harder to arrive at a better solution, one that brings out the love of God AND does not diminish the holiness of God at the same time.<<< I'm trying. I think removing evil and suffering right now will bring out his love and holiness. "His love" in that he is actually doing something to stop his children from more suffering. "His holiness" in that he is not tolerating evil anymore and eradicating it forever. Benjamin: Good, what about his justice and righteousness? Seeker: When is the question. One second to a suffering person can seem like an eternity. Benjamin: But you are only looking at the present life, eager to appease present suffering and discomforts. What about the life to come? The Bible says that “The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.” That one second may just be what is needed for him to come to God in repentance! Seeker: From the way some of these civil authorities (Hitler, Amin, Pol Pot, Milosevic, Taleban, etc) are working (or rather not working), it didn't work out too well. In fact, some of these civil authorities are themselves personifications of evil. So how can they restrict evil? Benjamin: That’s the problem of sin, isn’t it? It is not the state law that is not working, it is the people who abuse it. Civil laws are meant to maintain civil order, the right people on it will result in peace, the wrong people on it will result in anarchy. But one must say that without such institutions in place, it will be pandemonium! Seeker: >>>Aren’t you glad it was only 6,000 years and not 15 billion years?<<< For the purposes of this discussion, it doesn't really matter. When it comes to human suffering, 6000 years is still a very loooong time. Benjamin: Well that was just a tongue in cheek jab at evolution. ; ) Seeker: This topic started from a reference to god's character, ie. all-powerful, all-loving, all-merciful. So yes, in it there is a presupposition that god exists. Then we (or I or they) try to position his character against the issue of evil and suffering. And a seemingly illogical outcome resulted. I don't think evolution need to be brought in since we are discussing god's nature vis-a-vis the existence of evil and suffering. Benjamin: This discussion should not be taken in a vacuum. Hopefully this is not just for mental exercise. Making sense of life requires a wholistic approach which will call many things into view. It won’t be right to just immunize yourself from having your own worldview questioned while you have a good time taking some shots at the Christian worldview. Your own worldview should be able to stand up to scrutiny if it is the right one. Seeker: As to why I pose the question, it's an attempt to understand the christian god better, why there is a contradiction of his nature and the actual world we live in. Benjamin: There is actually no contradiction. God’s nature and being should not be confused with His creation. But then think again. At this juncture am I right to assume that you think the Christian worldview is wrong and that evolution is right? Or are you unsure of both? But if my assumption is correct, then it becomes meaningless to ask that question. Seeker: Whether Adam is an adult or child is not really the point of the analogy, although it can be argued that he is a child despite his physical status. How long has he been created before the apple incident? Before taking the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, how "adult" can he be? But like I say, that's not the point. Benjamin: But there is a point. Adam was created a mature adult. The Bible does not portray him and Eve as suffering a psychiatric condition where you have a child in an adult’s body. I have no idea how long after creation Adam disobeyed but that’s not the point. The point is that, Adam had full adult faculties. In fact, I think he would have quite an encyclopedic mind to be able to name all the animals and begin tending the Garden almost immediately. Seeker: Putting someone in a room full of goodies, then telling him one is untouchable and will lead to bad consequences, then putting a convicted trickster who has a personal grudge to grind against me into the very same room, is just asking for trouble. That's the point. Benjamin: But then, it could well be that no trouble arises. Remember, being tempted is not equals to sin. Seeker: >>>I hope you have given more than a cursory thought to your own reply. Think about the deeper implications of such a God.<<< Hope you can elaborate on this. But I suspect the "deeper implications" will lead you to more contradictions. Which is the point I am driving at. If god is all-loving and all-merciful, retribution shouldn't be on his mind. We may want the evildoers to get their comeuppance at the end, and we may look to god to do it. But if he's all-loving and all-merciful, he won't. Then he will seem to be an unjust god. More contradictions. Benjamin: Good thinking! Actually those contradictions are your problems not mine. You have just caught yourself in a dilemma. You don’t want God to exercise the principle of retribution, yet that would make Him unjust. For me, I want God to be just AND merciful at the same time. God solved that problem didn’t He when He thought of the perfect salvation rescue package? Seeker: >>>God, being omnipresent, was surely with Eve.<<< But he did nothing to stop satan from tempting Eve, when it was absolutely within his power to do so. In a homicide trial, that would qualify one as an accessory to murder, and rightly so. Benjamin: Hold it right there. How can God be an accomplice when He did not pass the fruit to Eve and Adam? God was not in cahoots. God does not force Himself upon us. It’s like taking an exam. The teacher can stand over you and see that you have written the wrong answer. Would you then later blame him for failing to correct you when you have failed to heed the instruction to be diligent? Jesus said that even a hateful thought can be murder. How would you like God to continue wiping your mind almost every second lest you even entertain a wrong thought? You will be like a walking zombie! Seeker: >>>Why won’t you accept what the Bible says? Isn’t it because you do not trust the Word of God?<<< No, it's because I don't believe that the bible is the Word of God. The bible was written by man and is the word of men, men claiming to speak for god. If god is to speak to me as he spoke to Adam, and I refuse to believe, then I have nothing to say. But what I have is just a book, purportedly recording his words. Benjamin: But it begs the question of how do you know that the voice belonged to God? Even the killer of John Lennon heard voices to kill John. What makes you think you are not engaging in hallucination and wishful thinking, the very thing most atheists accuse the Bible writers of? How are you going to verify it and convince others? Seeker: Actually, if people do good and resist evil BECAUSE they think they are accountable to a higher power, that is not nearly as honest as someone who does good and resist evil BECAUSE to him, that's just the right thing to do. Benjamin: Then I have a question for you. How does the person know that that’s just the right thing to do? Where did he get this sense of right and wrong? Your answer please. Seeker: Your point is that people prefer to pretend that there is no god and no eternal life so that they can have a rolling good time without inhibition. Once they accept god, they are prevented from having sinful fun and their freedom is curtailed. Benjamin: That’s what the Bible says "And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God." And I can tell you that this verses hit at the heart of the issue for the Word of God exposes the hearts of men, who seeks to deny it. Seeker: Recently, there's been a number of threads here detailing the colourful exploits of priests and pastors. Their beliefs certainly didn't stop them from their frolicking. What I am trying to say is that I don't think it is this that stops people from believing. It is the absence of evidence of god. Benjamin: That’s sad isn’t it when it happens in the church. But the point is that you are able to point out where he has fallen right? The psalmist says “Thy word I have treasured in my heart, That I may not sin against Thee.” The psalmist does not say that by having God’s Word he is incapable of sin. But think about the situation when no law is spelled out, what would you have? Seeker: >>>Moreover, how does evolution address the problem of evil? Is it capable of providing answers to these questions? What explanatory power does it have? Does it offer a better answer than the Bible? I see it as more reasonable to critique something if you have a better alternative or suggestion or are in a better position to resolve it.<<< It will distract us from the discussion if we bring in evolution. Would like to just deal with the christian aspect of theodicy first. Benjamin: Hey, indulge me a little, just give a brief response to this. If you have a ready answer I’m sure it won’t be too difficult to address it. I promise I won’t probe too far into it. Regards, Benjamin |
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