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Forum: Theological Expressions
Re:

Misrepresentations of Catholic Teachings by William Webster (Matthew Tan Yew Hock)
Date: 2001, Jun 12
From: Christopher Yip CKHY

Let's see if there are truly misrepresentations.
1. Salvation is through Rome ALONE: "It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart "into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" ..." (Council of Florence, 14th Council of the Roman Catholic Church"
TYH: The context of this document : this statement was targetted at a long list of specifically named heretics from the very beginning of Christianity. Many of these heretics did not believe in Jesus as fully God AND fully man - God in the fullest sense AND man in the fullest sense. They committed serious sins of heresies and schisms - sins which the Apostles condemned.
Protestants did not exist at this time.
ME: Aren't Protestants considered heretics and schismatics? Aren't we "separated brethren"? Aren't the Protestant churches NOT in communion with Rome? The statement makes a general declaration that anyone not in the Roman Catholic Church does not have salvation. It's plain as that. Here is the same quotation from anti-Protestant Mr Tan's trusted site - EWTN:
http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/FLORENCE.HTM
"It firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the catholic church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the catholic church before the end of their lives; that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the church's sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the catholic church."
Does that sound like a statement only applicable up to 4 Feb 1442 - the day it was given?
2. The Pope must be OBEYED or else you lose your salvation: "Furthermore, that every human creature is subject to the Roman pontiff,-this we declare, say, define, and pronounce to be altogether necessary to salvation" (Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam)
TYH: This was also written at the time when there was ONE HOLY CATHOLIC APOSTOLIC CHURCH. Although there were schismatic groups, the Pope still regarded them as belonging to the ONE CHURCH. Protestants did not exist at this time.
ME: Huh? What's the point here? I said the Roman Catholic Church teaches that the Pope MUST be obeyed or else there is no salvation. That was declared, defined and pronounced by Boniface. You mean it is no longer binding today?
TYH: Catholics must obey the Pope, because obedience to authority is scriptural. Obstinate and deliberate disobedience to God-ordained authority brings damnation (Rom 13:1-2).
ME: It doesn't say every Roman Catholic must obey the Pope, it says "EVERY HUMAN CREATURE" is subject to the Roman Pontiff. If they knew apes and monkeys could behave quite like humans, they would have included them in the statement too. Furthermore, read Romans 13:1-2 and one will realise that it is CIVIL authority that is being referred there.
TYH: "Subject to the Roman pontiff". The Pope was referring to the spiritual realm - faith and morals, and the sins against faith and morals.
God-ordained Church leaders excercise the authority to forgive and retain sins. Peter and his successors hold the Keys, and exercise the authority to open and shut the gate of the kingdom of heaven. (Matt 16:18-19, Matt 18:17-18, John 20:23, 1 Cor 5:1-5, Acts 8:18-24, Acts 5:1-10).
ME: The APOSTLES was given the keys to bind and loose and they affirm only what was already ordained in Heaven. NONE of the texts above says that this power was transferrable and transferrable ONLY to bishops of Rome. Even if such powers were transferable, ALL churches with apostolic succession would have the same infallible powers and let's bring in the Greek Orthodox Bartholomew and see how infallibility works against infallibility.
The Church, being the pillar and ground of truth, is not truth itself. It SUPPORTS truth which is found in the WORD only. The Church has the authority to TEACH from the Word but it does not have INFALLIBLE authority. NONE of the texts show that.
TYH: Most Protestant Christians today are not in obstinate and deliberate disobedience. If they know the truth, they will obey. If Protestants do not know the truth that the Pope has such power, and they are subject to "an ignorance that is invincible" "through no fault of their own", then Protestants (in general) are not under condemnation for disobedience. The Popes and the Vatican II Council have made it very clear that Protestants may be saved through their own churches.
Of course, for those who know the truth and are in obstinate and deliberate disobedience, they will not be saved, whether Catholics or Protestants.
By "obstinate and deliberate disobedience", I mean after repeated teachings, counselling, correcting and rebuking - all the necessary pastoral efforts. The Church always offers forgiveness to repentant sinners who make sincere confessions - God demands it. The Church does not condemn anyone without giving him a fair and reasonable chance.
ME: Let me put it the other way around and I CHALLENGE anti-Protestant Mr Tan and ANY Roman Catholic historian, professor, theologian, cardinal, and even John Paul II himself to DISPROVE me: The Greek Orthodox Church is the true Church and the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew is the infallible Teacher of the Universal Church and has universal jurisdiction over the entire Church. This is true REGARDLESS of opposition by Ecumenical Councils, individual church fathers, Protestants, Roman Catholics who are not insane or unlearned. Their opposition does not invalidate this belief, it only shows that they are "invincibly ignorant".
Now, how would someone go about disproving me? I am becoming invincibly fed-up that such an argument can be put forth!
Vatican II made it clear that Protestants can be saved through our own churches? The fact is that we NEVER KNOW what it would be - today, you can be saved outside of Rome, tomorrow, you cannot be. It has been like that for centuries!
- Boniface VIII (1302) says no: "All human creature... subject to Roman Pontiff"
- Council of Florence (1442) says no: "outside church ... cannot share in eternal life"
- Pope Innocent III (1198-1216 A.D.) says no: "By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic (Church) outside which we believe that no one is saved" (From the letter Eius exemplo. Found in Denzinger, p. 166, #423).
- Pope Clement VI (1342-1352 A.D.) says no: "No man of the wayfarers outside the faith of this Church, and outside the obedience of the Pope of Rome, can finally be saved" (From the letter Super quibusdum. Found in Denzinger, p. 204, #570b).
- Pius IX (1846-1878 A.D.) says depends: "For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood; but, on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, are not stained by any guilt in this matter in the eyes of God..." (and all that invincibly ignorant gibberish) (From the Allocution, Singulari quadem. Found in Denzinger, pp. 416, 425; #1647, 1677).
- The Council of Trent (1545) says no again: "For the completion of the salutary doctrine on Justification...it hath seemed suitable to treat of the most holy Sacraments of the Church, through which all true justice either begins, or being begun is increased, or being lost is repaired. After this Catholic doctrine on justification, which whosoever does not faithfully and firmly accept cannot be justified" (The Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent, in Philip Schaff, The Creeds of Christendom (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1919 ed.), pp. 118-121).
- Vatican I (1869) continues to say no: "Further, all those things are to be believed with divine and Catholic faith which are contained in the Word of God, written or handed down, and which the Church, either by a solemn judgment, or by her ordinary and universal magisterium, proposes for belief as having been divinely revealed..."; "We teach and define that it is a dogma divinely revealed: that the Roman Pontiff, when he speaks ex cathedra, ... is possessed of that infallibility... This is the teaching of Catholic truth, from which no one can deviate without loss of faith and salvation" (Philip Schaff, The Creeds of Christendom (New York: Harper, 1877), Dogmatic Decrees of the Vatican Council, On Faith, Chapter III; Chp. 4, pp. 266-71).
- Vatican II (1962) again declares no: "... it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation... affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by God through Jesus Christ, would refuse to enter her or to remain in her could not be saved." (The Documents of Vatican II (Chicago: Follett, 1966), Walter M. Abbott, S.J., General Editor.)
- The Catechism of the Catholic Church (1993) says yes: Section 841 - "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
- Dominus Iesus (2000) says no again - this is basically a restatement of Vatican II.
So on and so on. And here we are.
3. EVERY dogma of Rome MUST be BELIEVED or else you lose your salvation: "Further, all those things are to be believed with divine and Catholic faith which are contained in the Word of God, written or handed down, and which the Church, either by a solemn judgement, or by her ordinary and universal magisterium, proposes for belief as having been divinely revealed. And since, without faith, it is impossible to please God, and to attain to the fellowship of his children, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will any one obtain eternal life unless he shall have persevered in faith unto the end (Dogmatic Decrees of the Vatican Council I, On Faith, Chapter III)
TYH: Jesus is the Way and the Life and the Truth. Truth encompasses all "divinely revealed" truths. Faith means believing and in submission to Truth. When one is in obstinate and deliberate refusal to believe in divinely revealed truths, one commits the sin of disobedience to God-ordained authority, the sin of non-submission to Truth, and potentially the sin of heresy and schism - unless one is subject to "an ignorance that is invincible" "through no fault of his own".
ME: Two things. 1) Biblical saving faith is in the person and work of Jesus, not in Roman Catholic dogmas such as Purgatory or Assumption or Infallibility. Rome has changed it to assent to Rome's dogmas. 2) The only source of divinely revealed truths that can serve as our rule of faith is the Bible but Rome includes Tradition, an extrabiblical source and we are to have faith in those too.
TYH: What kind of people will likely commit sin of this nature? The very intelligent intellectuals who are also very obstinately proud people - especially those in teaching positions. They are so proud that they think their private understanding of the Bible is superior than that of the Church (past and present), superior than many God-ordained servants of the Word. esp. the highest authority - that is, the Popes, and the Ecumenical Councils.
ME: So those who oppose Rome's heresies are "proud", "obstinate", it is not that they have exegeted Scriptures, read Church history and the Patristics. They are simply proud. And readers will note that anti-Protestant Mr Tan has begged the question. He assumes that the Pope carries the highest authority and is divinely ordained by God to be the infallible guide - all hogwash.
The Christian's highest authority on earth is the inspired Word of God. No one, including the Church, could teach, preach, command, or practice anything contrary to Scriptures, even for good reason. No creeds, councils, church, denomination, popes, or anyone have spiritual authority, except they have it under the authority of the written Word. The Word overrules everything else.
Hence, it is clear to the readers that Roman Catholics adhere to sola Ecclesia.
TYH: Such teachers are in the most precarious position of teaching not what the Church intends to teach or is supposed to teach. Thus, they are likely to be leaders and teachers of heresies and schisms. They are likely to lead people to sin, and they themselves are likely to commit sins because their erroneous beliefs urge them towards sins.
Woe to those who cause people to sin !
"Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly" (James 3:1).
(The documentation I have shown you from the 6th Ecumenical Council should convince you that the faith of salvation includes true doctrines).
ME: Such "teachers" include the Pope and the Magisterium and indeed, woe to them who cause people to work for their salvation instead of trusting fully in Christ's completed work. Thank God for the Reformation. Reformation day is coming soon in October - celebrate!
It is hard for an institution as old as Rome to go back to the Scriptures but I do hope for that one brave Pope! You have to start from the bottom.
4. Salvation is ONLY through participation in Rome's sacraments, all 7 of them: "If any one saith that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation...and that without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain from God, through faith alone, the grace of justification...let him be anathema" (The Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent. Canon IV).
TYH: This is a gross mis-representation of Council of Trent. It is clear that the canon does not say what Mr. Yip assert. Also, always be alert when you see anti-Catholic quoting Catholic documents with ellipsis (...) such as it is done above. (Is this not verbatim from William Webster?)
ME: No, it is from James White.
TYH: I will go deeper into this when I deal more fully with anti-Catholic William Webster. Mr. Yip is merely reproducing William Webster, taking everything from his website.
(I am not able to finish this as soon as I wish because of the many recent replies that I have given to Mr. Yip)
ME: How convenient for anti-Protestant Mr Tan to accuse me of GROSS MISREPRESENTATION and then RUN AWAY. What is so hard to post the ENTIRE canon IV? Let me do it then and the readers can judge if the ellipses makes any difference. Again I am posting from anti-Protestant Mr Tan's TRUSTED site, EWTN:
http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/TRENT7.HTM
THE COUNCIL OF TRENT
Session VII - Celebrated on the third day of March 1547, under Pope Paul III
Canons on the Sacraments in General
Canon 4. If anyone says that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation but are superfluous, and that without them or without the desire of them men obtain from God through faith alone the grace of justification,[2] though all are not necessary for each one, let him be anathema.
I think it becomes even CLEARER what Trent declares. Without participation in the Sacraments, no one is saved. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, reflecting this canon, declares unequivocally:
1129 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.
The Code of Canon Law also declares the SAME thing:
Canon 849: Baptism, the gateway to the sacraments, is necessary for salvation, either by actual reception or at least by desire. By it people are freed from sins, are born again as children of God and, made like to Christ by an indelible character, are incorporated into the Church. It is validly conferred only by a washing in real water with the proper form of words (The Code of Canon Law (London: Collins, 1983).
John Hardon also says:
Are the sacraments necessary for salvation? According to the way God has willed that we be saved the sacraments are necessary for salvation" (John Hardon, The Question and Answer Catholic Catechism (Garden City: Image, 1981), Questions # 1119).
TYH: Regarding participation of sacraments, this is irrelevant because of the above mis-representation.
ME: Well, we just have to wait and see where is the misrepresentation.
Christopher