My input

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My input

Forum: Theological Expressions
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"Impartation" theology
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For those interested only - On Cessationism. (Christopher Yip)
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Miracles still exists. It takes faith to believe
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Cannot be...
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Just because there are counterfeit currencies doesn't mean the real ones aren't legitimate. (SK)
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How do these "miracles" disprove cessationism? (eom) (Christopher Yip)
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Adoi...since when is cessation a proven doctrine for all denominations? n/t (SK)
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Which one? (GiGi)
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I only know of those denominations that know the Truth and walk in the truth.... (SK)
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... as defined by YOU, SK? (if I may add)(still in satori mode ;-)) (eom) (Christopher Yip)
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Since you don't like my version, ask RTC! He's specializes in Church history. (SK)
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Clarification. (Christopher Yip)
Date: 2001, Jul 03
From: RTC

Cessationists say that the SIGN GIFTS have ceased after the apostolic era. Sign gifts have ceased but not miracles. ++What do you mean by apostolic era and sign gifts? A clear definition will go a long way to clarify the issues. I presume that by apostolic era you mean the time of the apostles, till the death of John. Or does it extend to a few more years until after their direct disciples are dead, like Polycarp? And how does one distinguish between a sign, a wonder, and a miracle? Is a miracle not a sign in a sense? In fact, a miracle is a wonder which signifies something to the observers, doesn’t it? Interestingly, I did a search under “signs” and “wonders” in Baker’s Evangelical Dictionary and it refers me to “miracles”. It defines miracles as an event which runs counter to the observed processes of nature. They are intended to bring the glory and love of God into bold relief. They are intended, among other things, to draw man's attention away from the mundane events of everyday life and direct it toward the mighty acts of God. The Gospels teach that the significance of all the miracles of Christ is that they are the prophesied works of the Messiah. The miracles are signs rather than merely wonderful works. They are, however, signs only to those who have the spiritual discernment to recognize them as such. Without the enlightenment that accompanies Christian commitment they are only "wonders," or wonderful works, and their true theological significance cannot be recognized. OK, having said that, I am of the opinion that the statement “Sign gifts have ceased but not miracles” is not quite correct. Secondly, the bible does not support the thesis that faith is required all the time for miracles to take place: <snipped>The common element in all these instances is God's sovereign will to heal, not the recipient's or any others' faith. ++I disagree. All the references you give had the element of faith, either in the recipient or in the person asking for help. The only exceptions were those where it is absurd for those who were dead or had their faculties impaired by demons to have faith in response to Jesus. And Mark 6:5 mentioned nothing about those who were healed, but if Scripture should interpret Scripture, these few who were healed also had faith in Jesus. If the verse “without faith it is impossible to please God” is true, I believe then that there is not just one common element (sovereignty of God) but that faith is necessary too, whether in recipient or in the person(s) representing the recipient of the miracle. Miracles may exist but cessationism is about the sign GIFTS. ++See above. However, I’ve read that cessationism refers more to the idea that the gifts are no longer given to individuals with the completion of the canon in the 4th century. Miracles do happen but it is not because of someone with the gift of miracles, but God responding to prayers of faithful saints. Is that your view too? Perhaps we are not talking about the same thing here. Why do you refer me to church history? Are you saying that church history shows that sign gifts have perpetuate even after the apostolic period? If so, I would certainly like to hear RTC's church history that shows sign gifts in operation after the apostolic period. ++I referred you earlier to the book “Charismatic Gifts in the Early Church”, available from SKS. The main point of the book is not that God withdrew the gifts, but that increasing institutionalism crowded out and quenched the workings of spiritual gifts in the church. The author documented the existence of such gifts up to the 4th century. When people depend on their own wisdom and ingenuity to manage things, exchanging organism for organisation, and relegated ministry to the elite clergy, it is no wonder that experiences with spiritual gifts seem to dwindle as a whole. I believe that the Bible in no way hint that the church need no spiritual gifts for the building up of the body. There is no biblical teaching, explicitly or implicitly, that gifts will cease with the completion of the canon as none of the writers of the NT had any such conception of a completed canon when they were penning the letters to the churches. It may be rare to know of someone who has certain gifts of the more spectacular kind, but rarity does not imply cessation. For the church to once again turn the world upside down, we need the power of the Holy Spirit, which cannot be replaced by the might of ecclesiastical organisations with their well-honed and well-intentioned programs and activities, which many today depend on.