"Refuted"? You mean "rancour", don't you?

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"Refuted"? You mean "rancour", don't you?

Forum: Theological Expressions
Re:

We need changed hearts, not miracles. (Wahshing)
Re:

Why many kept calling myJesus,a false healer,today?
Re:

It's time to come back from "Experience" to Scriptures! (Christopher Yip)
Re:

All those queries and distortions were refuted long ago!Here's more.
Date: 2001, Aug 30
From: Christopher Yip CKHY

Frankie,
I will respond only to arguments. Your venting of frustration and all those outcries of distortions that are not followed up with specifics and evidences are ignored.
YOU: 2,Oral Roberts.." It is a monument to the unfulfilled promises of faith healing". This is negative reports,and rejoicing at the failure of a man of God.Mind you,Oral Roberts contributed extensively and successfully till this day,Oral Roberts University.They have great success in many areas for the Lord.The above words are clearly spoken out of jealousies and envies.It is a reports of despising the failures of a man. If that place is a monument of failure,as suggested as unfulfiled promises of Faith healing;then Oral Roberts University is a monument of greater fulfilment of Faith Healing.It is still teaching about Faith Healings till this day in University!!!!
ME: You are talking about the "University" but MacArthur was talking about the "Hospital".
"At one time in his ministry, Oral Roberts declared that God had called him to build a massive hospital that would blend conventional medicine and faith healing. Later, in the face of huge financial losses, he said God was telling him to close it down. I recently visited the site. An enormous sculpture of praying hands stood in front of a monolithic but virtually empty building in the middle of a lot overgrown with weeds. It is a monument to the unfulfilled promises of faith healing."
As for ORU, what do they offer? How do you conclude that the ORU is a "a monument of greater fulfilment of Faith Healing"? What is the link? ORU offers secular courses such as Art, Behavioural Science, Biology, Business, Chemistry, Comm Arts, Engineering / Physics, Education, English, History, Humanities, Math & Computer Sciences, Modern Languages, Multimedia, Music, Nursing besides Theology. In other words, it is just a University.
On the other hand, Oral Roberts at first claimed that it was God who called him to build the hospital and later, in the face of huge financial losses, Oral Roberts claimed again that God had called him to close it down. This is the point.
As for the bit on Kathryn Kuhlman, I really don't know what is your point. As for as the article is concerned, we are examining Kuhlman's alleged healings.
YOU: How does one know God withdraw gifts from us?It take greater Divine Revelations to know that. My God,and Lord Jesus told me that it had not cease,the gifts have not cease.That is it.This is my testimony.
ME: Hmm. So it is your personal experience that tells you that the sign gifts have not ceased. What about Scriptures?
YOU: My proves:Mark 16;17 Jesus said,"And these signs will follow those who believe".Is it not for the average Christian? The clearest conditions laid out by our Lord Himself is ,"For those who believe..for those who believe..for those who believe..."Obviously it is not for those who do not believe in the Sign Gifts at all."Those who do not believe do not qualify.This simple criteria,is clearly understood."
ME: Mark 16:15-20 is the only passage in the Gospels that deals with gifts exercised by believers after the day of Pentecost. Mark 16:15 connects the statements in the following verses with preaching the gospel, that is, with evangelistic outreach. Casting out demons, speaking in tongues, taking up serpents, drinking poison, and healing are called signs. This is the same word (semeion) that John uses in his Gospel to describe Christ's miracles, which were performed in order to confirm his person and message (see John 20:30-31).
According to Mark 16:15-20 the miraculous acts, such as healing, casting out demons, and speaking in tongues are to be signs that will accompany the preaching of the gospel and confirm the gospel message. Some interpreters believe that Jesus Christ was promising that these signs would always accompany believers; that is, that they would be present throughout the history of the church. If this were so, then these signs would have been evident throughout church history in all sections of the church, regardless of the church's attitude. Jesus said that they would accompany those who had believed (past tense). He gave no conditions; therefore, they accompanied those persons who believed for whatever the duration intended by the Lord. Grammatically, the passage does not require that these signs accompany all believers for all time. Jesus said that these signs would accompany "those who have believed." The expression those who have believed is related in time to the main verb, "shall follow," and is antecedent to it. It could refer either to the believers at that time only or believers throughout church history. The past tense opens the possibility that this refers to those who had already believed at the time Jesus made the statement.
Presence of Signs Was Without Conditions
This is an unequivocal statement that these signs would follow the believers involved. The presence of these signs does not depend on faith or on seeking the signs or sign gifts involved. It does not await revival or some other contingency, nor does it refer only to the beginning and the latter times of the history of the church. The statement does not require that all believers exercise all of these signs. The conditional statement, "if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them," applies to any of those believers to whom Jesus referred. Thus none of "those who have believed" will be harmed by drinking any deadly thing. The same also applies to handling snakes. If this refers to believers of the entire church age, then no believer shall ever die from drinking anything deadly and no believer shall die from snakebite. The preceding is true regardless of their faith, knowledge, or belief in spiritual gifts since it is a direct, unconditional prophecy. This is improbable; therefore, it is improbable that it refers to the entire church age.
Mark 16:18 states, "They shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." This is not conditioned on any response of the sick person. His faith has no bearing on the result. There is no allowance for failure. They shall get well. But these signs have neither followed all believers nor been present throughout the greater part of church history. The sporadic claims to speaking in tongues during the last nineteen hundred years have not been validated and have occurred only in isolated cases. Tongues have not always followed believers. The same may be said of the other signs mentioned in his passage. Healers have neither always been present nor even claimed to be present in the church.
The belief that these signs have not been present during most of church history due to a lack of faith on the part of Christians is contrary to this passage. Jesus said that these signs would accompany believers. There are no "ifs" or conditions. Believers have died from drinking poison and other deadly things, and we have no evidence that believers are immune to poison today. If Mark 16:15-20 means that miracles and tongues are present today and have always been present in the church, it also means that believers today may drink poison without harm. If these signs are to accompany believers today and since there are no conditions stated (such as seeking such gifts or exercising faith in charismatic workings), why aren't they demonstrated among all groups of genuine believers? Therefore, this passage does not mean that all believers will do these signs or that these signs will always be present in the church.
The Correct Interpretation
We must interpret this passage carefully in order to see what it means. Notice the following three points.
- First, Jesus did not say that these signs would always follow believers. Since in reality they have not, this omission is significant.
- Second, the fact that this was addressed to the apostles and referred to "those who have believed" (aorist tense) makes it grammatically possible to refer these statements to the early group of believers, that is, those who had already believed.
- Third, Mark 16:20 states that this preaching and confirmation by signs was accomplished (past tense) by those present. It was accomplished by the time Mark wrote his Gospel. The rest of the New Testament confirms this fact. This is all that is necessary to fulfil the promises of Mark 16:15-20.
MacArthur said, "Why is it that charismatic healers have not attempted that? Why not assemble all those who say they have gifts of healing and have them go out to minister where the worst ..."
YOU: We are limited by time space and constraints by many factors.
ME: But if you have time to hold healing rallies, how much does it take to have just ONE demonstration at, say, SGH?
YOU: The recipient must agree to it and accept our Faith.
ME: But the bible teaches that such signs were to confirm the gospel, that is, meant to be used on and for unbelievers, in the presence of their disbelief.
YOU: We cannot barge in just like that. They are even carnal Christians,who allowed Spiritual Christians who believe the Divine Healings message,to pray over their loved ones and relatives.When their relatives do not displayed cooperations or Faith in the Lord Jesus,and did not get heal,the BLAME is on that GOOD SAMARITANs!
ME: Did Jesus and the Apostles have such problems - attempted to heal but failed to heal and was thus blamed? I don't think so. They healed and were rejected - yes, but NEVER tried to heal and failed. That's a whole lot of difference, Frankie.
YOU: The carnal Christian even had the audacities to blame the Charismatics Christian for being such a BUSY body,and ruining their relatives faith in Christ,whom preferring Cultural funeral to Christian Funeral.
ME: If the faith healer raised the dead, I'm pretty sure no one is going to complain.
YOU: It is like,"Please come and help me.When help is not given,curses are given".
ME: Why don't faith healers help these by performing a healing for them? Think, Frankie, think.
YOU: We are also constraints by this silly people who distrust us and so ruin many souls for good.
ME: So it is all the believers and non-believers' fault that faith healers don't heal in public and as often, eh? Convenient.
YOU: Dr Nolen one sided story,I do not believe on what he said. It is distortions.Kathryn's foundation stood taller to his distortions.There are more documented cases,sign by renowned specialists,greater than his ignorance!
ME: I'm waiting with bated breath, Frankie.
Christopher