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In-Depth Study 
be acquainted with the teaching about righteousness (Keith)
The righteous acts of the saints (Ivan)
Untitled (Keith)
Can the saints be cut off from the vine? i'm trying to find some answers to some questions only. eom (saved-by-grace)
A good question indeed. (Royston Ong)
take away = remove, not discipline (saved-by-grace)
pruning vs disciplining (Royston Ong)
Concerning Bruce's explanation (saved-by-grace)
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"But is Bruce differentiating 'take away' in Jhn 15:2 from 'pruning' in the same verse? I guess he also might have use 'lift up' as it has that meaning too in the Greek original as brought up by you." Yes, AIRO and pruning are differentiated for specific purposes in our lives, under his definition. Bruce has done his homework as to whether it be "take away" or "lift up" by a vinedresser's self-discovery, so I think it be better for you to read his book, as there is a build up of thought progression, and then compare it to your own definition. Initially, I had a difficulty as well to come to terms with his definition, but when I took into consideration, people who chooses to abide in Christ at their death beds, without any works to prove of their salvation, but only being justified by faith IN CHRIST. I could then see there was a link. Hence, not bearing fruit does not discount us from losing our salvation. On the other hand, it would be better to see what is God's purpose(In God's eyes) in the light of us not bearing fruit. His purpose is for us to bear some fruit, from the issue of no fruit. Hence, there is a need for discipline, a push/"lifting up"/propping up from Him. What I have done is probably whetting our appetite to dig in to the Word in more in-depth study instead of being content that the English version says "take away". That will not truly do justice to Biblical understanding and application. "But still i think the context in chp 15 does give the possibility that 'lift up' may not the intended meaning here for v 2's 'takes away'. Else it will read like Jesus forcing the words in v 6 to mean a totally different scenario. If He had meant 'lift up' the unfruitful branch, why would He warn about not abiding in Him else face being thrown away?" First of all, I took some time last night to find the Greek word for v6 about thrown away.... and it was certainly not AIRO. Maybe it be wiser to ask ourselves, why did John write two different words for v2 and v6? Was he trying to describe a difference, or a similarity? If it was a similarity, why the different Greek word used? Notice there is a difference stipulated with Every Branch and If anyone..... One was a general pool of people, while the other is a personal. Why again a difference? Let me spend more time researching on this channel. :) "Moreover, Jesus is using the illustration in chp 15 that He is the Vine and so all branches are in Him...ie all branches are christians. Non-christians are never in Christ unless they become christians or should i use the word, saved believers." If you state this as your opinion about abiding, then it would go against the statement made to the unfruitful branches cos they are also branches in CHRIST. Get what I am saying here? There should not be a contradiction. Which is why v2 is for Christians for they are in Christ, while v6 is indicating those outside, not abiding in Christ. Maybe another clue to your query can be found in v3:"You are already clean BECAUSE of the WORD WHICH I HAVE SPOKEN TO YOU." What word was spoken? Naturally, it was from John 15:1-2. So it means to say that those who are not bearing fruit as well as bearing some fruit are abiding in Christ, for Christ is the true Vine and the Father is the Vinedresser. Hence the emphasis of abide in me in v4. One has to ask oneself, what is the intention of the Vinedresser? On top of that what is a vine and what are its branches? How can branch not abide in a vine? These questions are also being brought to surface by Bruce. Hence, there is completeness in his approach. A recommended reading if one wishes to be fruitful for God. |
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