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Yes, we are getting closer to understanding each other, probably like 3/5 there. Ü 
We are NOT sinners (Keith)
SAINTS OR SINNERS? (Ivan)
We still sin but we are not call sinner (True Light)
SAINTS OR "AINTS" (Ivan)
just for your info... (Royston Ong)
Royston, please do not put words in my posting:" I say it is natural to be AWARE I am a sinner" eom. (Ivan)
In God's eyes, (Royston Ong)
Hey Royston, (Interested )
Thanks for your affirmation, Interested. (Royston Ong)
Hi Royston, (Interested )
On Modern Christianity (Royston Ong)
Modern Christianity? (True Light)
On Methodism's Sunday Christians... (Royston Ong)
Are we talking about sinner or Christian? (True Light)
We cannot really say they do nothing for only God knows their hearts, and that is more important (Royston Ong)
Who is "those" (True Light)
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Hi TL, Thanks for not looking down on 2nd generation Christians or Sunday Christians. And do not think you were looking down, just that when we have such theology of salvation by works, subconscious, we have cast our doubts on those who have not born any fruits. You are not wrong in saying all these about works classified as the Great Commandment and the Great Commission. This is not where Interested and the rest of us have qualms with. In fact, we are all on the same page with you. Works is to be understood as the COMMANDMENTS and the COMMISSION by God, BUT it is ONLY through the recognition AND the acknowledgement of Christ's completed work on the Cross AND the continuous work of the Holy Spirit in our lives. Maybe this might come a little difficult for a Oneness theorists to understand, regarding the Holy Trinity's job scope. Each one of the Holy Trinity has a different role to play in the affairs of a Christian's (or a believer's) life. Will discuss with you more in detail on a different thread regarding Holy Trinity and Oneness. Also I have just recently been to SKS and bought a book whose author was once a Oneness practitioner but has since realised his mistakes, I hope to draw more insights from someone like him who is seeing it from both angles: as a Trinitarian as well as a Oneness as you are also, in order to understand your stand. No point for me to start talking further about Holy Trinity if I am unable currently to understand this aspect of Oneness theology. Ok, my brother-in-Christ? Ü Do hold that thought till a later date? Ü "YOU SAID : Instead, it should be, because your salvation is assured, what then would be your response? *** How about those who have accepted Christ before but have fallen away and thus not responding anymore? Are they still considered abiding in Christ? YOU SAID : However, only "those" who act wilfully against God's will, are thrown away and given a place with the unbelievers) *** Just to make sure I understand you, who is the "those" in the above statement? Saints or Sinners?. Since sinners don't even know God, I don't think they have any opportunity to act wilfully. YOU SAID : One thing I am clear, is that those who know God's will, but choose to violate it by going their own sinful way is clearly going to eternal damnation, as did Judas Iscariot, for he was privileged to see Christ perform miracles and even know that Christ was the Messiah, yet he acted and chose to do what was not of God's will, by betraying Christ and disengaging all ties with Christ. *** You have brought up the pivot point of our discussion; that is "those" who know God's will, but choose to violate it by going their own sinful way is clearly going to eternal damnation. The disagreement is how we view the "those" in your statement. I view them as saints while you see it as sinners. I don't think sinners will understand God's will. Only those(saints) who have accepted Christ and study the Word BEFORE will truly understand God's will." Now, firstly, what does "fallen away or turn away" mean to you? For me, it means that this believer/saint wilfully went against God's will. Hence, it agrees with Luke 12:46, this servant/saint/believer, who belongs to the Master(Christ), was THROWN OUT and GIVEN A PLACE WITH THE UNBELIEVERS/UNSAVED. Therefore, this term we have used "those" here imply, and you have read me right once again, are actually SAINTS who has given up their positions as SAINTS by choosing not to abide in Christ (John 15:6). Due to their wilful disobedience to God's will and plan and purpose, they have therefore forfeited their position in Christ, THEY have DENIED Christ as their LORD and SAVIOUR by turning away or falling away. Hence, these people then CHOSE for themselves not to ABIDE IN CHRIST, which is in tune to John 15:6, where it is read as a choice. "IF ANYONE does not ABIDE IN ME, he will be thrown away and dries up" and burned in fire. So contextually, as described by Christopher on the Gospel of John over the issue of eternal security, John 15:1-6 is therefore in agreement with John 3:16-18 where Christ's and God's agenda is to bring all into the Body of Christ, as long as we confess and believe He is Lord and Saviour. Because He has paid the price on the cross, therefore, when we acknowledge He is Lord and Saviour, we shall be IN HIM, without the need for works. The works issue should never at all take precedence. This is echoed over and over again in John 15:1-6, by the registration of the words "IN ME". So what is the focus for Christians? Christ then is the key, the focus and it goes on ffrom there, with regards to the issue of fruitfulness. John 15:3 holds also a key to the understanding of John 15:1-2 as pointed out by Christopher that Judas was not in the garden, hence the disciples he was addressing to are all IN CHRIST. Read as a chunk and see how it impacts your thinking? Then after that, continue reading John 15:4-5, and again try linking this to John 15:1-3 as a whole. See what extra meaning comes out of it. Then lastly, look at John 15:6 and see how this comes into the picture? So to round up here: 1. You are right to read me as "those" indicating saints who CHOSE to disobey God's will, hence denying Christ as Lord and Saviour, thereby being banished into eternal damnation. 2. Therefore, a Christian, so long as they do not deny Christ as Lord and Saviour (be it a 2nd generation Christians or a Sunday Christian or a True Believer or a Professing Christians), some will then be 'awarded' crowns of glory for they did well in obeying the great commanment and great commission, while others will be punished if they did not act out God's will in a manner becoming of them; however they will not lose their salvation as it is clear from 1 Cor 3:12-15 for they did not deny Christ. They just have no fruits to show for. Bearing in mind that the Corinthian church was one of those churches that would fit the model of a "little or no fruits" church, even when they thought they were doing the correct things. So would many of the churches in Revelations, and notice God's message is more for those who overcome, so the main focus is on the saints to rise above their predicament or situation and persevere in Christ, not works. 3. Therefore, the KEY is to recognise Christ as Lord and Saviour, being the foundational block, for He is the cornerstone, upon which all other stones shall be laid upon it. 4. We can also both agree that God the Father ultimately knows His children's hearts better than we know one another's. 5. Our definition of works is the same: Obeying God's great commandments and the great commission. Only part different, might just stem from the fact of "doing all these in Christ and trusting in the continuing works of the Holy Spirit" In Christ's love, we excel abundantly, royston |
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We are closer now, 4/5 by True Light, 2001, Oct 23
On topic of discussion in future by Royston Ong, 2001, Oct 25
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