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Getting into the "Secrets of the Vine" 

Forum: Messageboard
Date: 2001, Oct 27
From: Ivan Ivan

Hi all, I think this has become a very controversial topic on "The Secrets of the Vine" judging from the amount of threads generated. I may say that this seems to be the hot topic of the hour. There are so many sincere and pertinent questions ask which I like to list them here re the passage in Jn 15:1-8. 1) Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away or lifts up. v 2   Q. Does this verse refer to Christian or non-Christian? If it refers to Christian then "lifts up" will apply. If it refers to non-Christian then "takes away" will apply. Or it can accommodate both views? 2) If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. v 6   Q. Does this verse refer to Christian or non-Christian? If it refers to Christian, then it appears that Christian can lose their salvation. If it refers to non-Christian, there is no problem with the loss of salvation. THE BIG QUESTIONS BEFORE US IS THIS: A) DOES FRUITBEARING DETERMINE A CHRISTIAN'S SALVATION? B) CAN A CHRISTIAN LOSE HIS SALVATION? C) ARE THERE FALSE(PSEUDO) CHRISTIANS? D) CAN A CHRISTIAN FAIL TO BEAR FRUIT IN HIS LIFETIME AND CLAIM TO BE A CHRISTIAN? CONDITIONS FOR FORUMERS 1) Be objective and not be biased. 2) Do not take sides. 3) Be convincing in justifying your positions. 4) Do not lose self-control. Avoid "forum rage". 5) Do not run down the arguments of other views. 6) Do form your own conclusion at the end of your posting. 7) Be Biblical or Scriptural in supporting your views. The objective of this posting is to let those who have missed the previous discussion to contribute so that we will be able to cast a wider net to accommodate more views. Please feel free to contribute. Please try to abide by the conditions. In His steps,

to: "Getting into the "Secrets of the Vine""

Messages Inline: Outline:

1. Salvation & works by LBS, 2001, Oct 27

1. Thanks LBS, do you want to contribute and form your own conclusion,if any? eom. by Ivan, 2001, Oct 27

1. My belief by LBS, 2001, Oct 27

1. Basing on gut feel or God's word by Ivan, 2001, Oct 28

2. Responding by LBS, 2001, Oct 29

1. Remain in Christ; beware of wrong teachings! by Ivan, 2001, Oct 29

2. Faith + Works = Righteous by True Light, 2001, Oct 30

1. You will not be burdened by works for the burden is on the Holy Spirit working in us; you are enlightened,TL. eom. by Ivan, 2001, Oct 30

2. Faith = Righteousness + Works by Keith, 2001, Oct 30

1. Faith + Works = Righteousness? by Interested , 2001, Oct 30

1. Hey Keith and Royston, Are you in the mood for some Algebra? by Interested , 2001, Oct 30

2. Some clarifications by True Light, 2001, Oct 31

1. Sorry! should be "counted" & not "accounted" righteous. EOM by True Light, 2001, Oct 31

2. so does ivan believe faith+works = righteousness or faith = works = righteousness? eom by Royston Ong, 2001, Oct 31

1. To fine tune the equation of TL..... by Ivan, 2001, Oct 31

3. Hi TL by Royston Ong, 2001, Nov 01

1. Formula not truly represent our belief by True Light, 2001, Nov 01

1. Yes, True Light, we are in agreement on this area........ by Ivan, 2001, Nov 01

(_ Agree! EOM by True Light, 2001, Nov 01

2. I understand, but i need to clarify as you gave Keith another equation Faith = Works = Righteousness. Do you still hold by Royston Ong, 2001, Nov 05

3. Explanatory note: the formula is meant to be read as: Faith in Christ produces Righteousness and Good Works in us. eom. by Keith, 2001, Oct 30

3. Hi Ivan, Do me a favour first by LBS, 2001, Oct 30

4. Hi Truelight, Do me a favour first by LBS, 2001, Oct 30

1. The works of the Law or the works of obedience? by Ivan, 2001, Oct 31

1. Thanks for defining "works" in Roman. by True Light, 2001, Oct 31

(_ Ivan's definition is Living Faith = faith+obedient works = righteousness ....is it then different from your definition? by Royston Ong, 2001, Oct 31

2. What is faith? by True Light, 2001, Oct 31

3. Ivan, Truelight, Need your help to understand by LBS, 2001, Oct 31

1. Hi LBS, To answer you, I need to ask you a question....... by Ivan, 2001, Oct 31

2. Grace, Faith & Believe by True Light, 2001, Nov 01

3. Ivan, Truelight, Haven't got a satisfactory reply yet by LBS, 2001, Nov 01

1. On true Christian by Ivan, 2001, Nov 01

1. My concern: are we believing/preaching the right gospel by LBS, 2001, Nov 02

1. Hi LBS by Ivan, 2001, Nov 02

2. 2 questions by True Light, 2001, Nov 03

1. Reply by LBS, 2001, Nov 03

2. Don't think can help you. by True Light, 2001, Nov 01

1. Haven't changed topic, still on salvation&works by LBS, 2001, Nov 03

4. common ground: we are all saved in Christ by Keith, 2001, Nov 02

1. A matter of life and death by LBS, 2001, Nov 02

(_ I have to explain further because you believe in an empty faith. by True Light, 2001, Nov 03

(_ Faith is believing what God ask you to believe by LBS, 2001, Nov 03

1. Hi LBS by Royston Ong, 2001, Nov 04

1. But we must be consistent by LBS, 2001, Nov 04

(_ The mysteries of Abide in me, AND I in you by Royston Ong, 2001, Nov 05

1. To further add by Royston Ong, 2001, Nov 05

1. Hence, nothing about works comes into play, but it follows the same train of thought as by Royston Ong, 2001, Nov 05

(_ Fully agree with you on this. by Keith, 2001, Nov 05

1. Maths class by True Light, 2001, Nov 05

1. Actually, TL. I am afraid it is not at all close to a summation rule, as proposed by both Ivan and yourself eom by Royston Ong, 2001, Nov 06

2. Hi TL by Keith, 2001, Nov 06

1. I like your explanation on the baby christian equation. by True Light, 2001, Nov 06

(_ On baby christians and balanced teachings by Keith, 2001, Nov 07

1. You are right! different approach. by True Light, 2001, Nov 07

1. True believer? by Keith, 2001, Nov 08

(_ Thanks. EOM by True Light, 2001, Nov 08

2. Yah yah, am certainly moving along the same wavelength as you are by Royston Ong, 2001, Nov 08

2. Go ahead, if it helps to make things clearer for all. by Royston Ong, 2001, Nov 05

2. Still see inconsistencies regarding Jn 15:1-8 by LBS, 2001, Nov 06

1. What kind of "once saved always saved" do you believe?. by True Light, 2001, Nov 07

1. Please see post "Recap" by LBS, 2001, Nov 09

2. TL and SBG are unable to see past it, does not mean they totally disagree by Royston Ong, 2001, Nov 08

1. Confounded by LBS, 2001, Nov 09

1. Am a little tired as I reply this.... by Royston Ong, 2001, Nov 10

1. Understand you are tired by LBS, 2001, Nov 11

2. Please re-read my earlier posting to you.... by Royston Ong, 2001, Nov 10

2. I twist verses? by True Light, 2001, Nov 04

1. You didn't read me post properly by LBS, 2001, Nov 05

(_ Re-post by True Light, 2001, Nov 05

(_ I haven't changed my belief! by LBS, 2001, Nov 05

(_ Your answer not clear by True Light, 2001, Nov 05

(_ Please see post "Recap" by LBS, 2001, Nov 09

4. Recap by LBS, 2001, Nov 09

1. Please reconsider by Ivan, 2001, Nov 10

1. not exactly agree by Royston Ong, 2001, Nov 11

1. We cannot hope to fully explain the Apostle James teaching on the 2 sides of the same coin (born-again heart)...... by Ivan, 2001, Nov 11

(_ if you say :"Like I said the resulting or subsequent works of obedience is a ..." by Royston Ong, 2001, Nov 12

(_ We need to explain the equation by Ivan, 2001, Nov 13

2. The reason for this discussion by LBS, 2001, Nov 11

1. Hi LBS by Ivan, 2001, Nov 11

1. Amen! Ivan, I think you explained better. by True Light, 2001, Nov 11

(_ You forgot the FMs & the Readers. Hehehe! eom by saved-by-grace, 2001, Nov 12

(_ Oops! Errr! the FM & readers are represented by those dots. kekeke! EOM by True Light, 2001, Nov 12

2. Closing the gap in our understanding? by LBS, 2001, Nov 11

1. O gosh! The debate is going to repeat itself one more time? by saved-by-grace, 2001, Nov 12

2. For your sake who is still on the milk of God's word and not ready for solid food, by Ivan, 2001, Nov 12

3. Wrapping up by LBS, 2001, Nov 17

1. In summing up, you are in a dangerous position if you continue in the carnal state, and not walk in the Spirit.... by Ivan, 2001, Nov 17

3. What gospel do you preach? by LBS, 2001, Oct 29

1. The gospel I preached by True Light, 2001, Oct 29

2. The gospel based on 1 Cor 15:1-4.eom. by Ivan, 2001, Oct 29

2. Very well displayed LBS. by Royston Ong, 2001, Oct 27

3. You are good, man! by True Light, 2001, Oct 28

4. To Royston, A major diffrence between the Arminians and Calvinists. by Interested , 2001, Oct 31

1. Yup understand what you mean by Royston Ong, 2001, Nov 11

to: "Getting into the "Secrets of the Vine""

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