Salvation & works

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Salvation & works

Forum: Messageboard
Re:

Getting into the "Secrets of the Vine" (Ivan)
Date: 2001, Oct 27
From: LBS

Based on previous debate on salvation and works, below are the views of 4 persons engaged in the discussion. I have also drawn conclusions on their views in relation to each other. If it is inaccurate reflection of your stand, please clarify. Hopefully this will help in further discussion. Ivan’s stand Salvation is based on the finished work of Christ on Calvary. PERIOD. No one will quarrel with that; ONLY the devil will. If you are a true believer you will and must bear fruit. If you are not bearing fruit and continue to practise sin, you are not part of Christ and have to be taken away and thrown away, withered and be burned (Jn 15:2,6). Chris’ If you had believed with all your heart that Jesus is God and that He died for your sins, Jesus says you are already saved. Period. And to arrive at this state, your heart must have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit and given faith to believe. Who can undo the Spirit's work and not be more sovereign than Him at the same time? And all of this is because of GRACE. Nothing in there has anything to do with your own merit. Nothing at all. Roman Catholicisim teaches that salvation is by grace alone but not by faith alone. They too believe that salvation is by the finished work of Christ and even claim, as you do, that it is SOLELY by that work. However, they add just as you do, if the believer does not produce fruit, good works, then they may not be saved after all. Royston’s Yes, a true believer will bear fruits, and certainly will not lose his salvation, but that is not the issue. The issue lies with you (Ivan) saying people who are not bearing fruits will lose their salvation. Scripturally incorrect as indicated in Lk 12:46-48. I have no qualms with the issue of wilful sinning leading to eternal damnation... [but] not bearing fruits cannot be equated that this person is living a life of wilful sinning as a believer. Living in sin is denying Christ as Lord and Saviour. Wilful sinning starts first with the believer not wanting to stay rooted in Christ. This believer will cease to be in Christ, because he himself took himself out of Christ. (Para 2 admits that believers can lose their salvation. Hence Royston’s stand is different from Chris’ stand) Truelight’s …. [there] are actually SAINTS who has given up their positions as SAINTS by choosing not to abide in Christ (John 15:6)." A true Christian will bear fruit and thus will not lose his salvation. The difference is our understanding of "true Christian". Many can call themselves Christians but what constitute a true Christian? Can someone who, repent before, attend church every sunday but not obeying the commandments(baptise, preaching the gospel, repent everytime he sin etc) of God, living a worldly life, be consider a true Christian? (Para 1 suggests that Truelight’s stand is the same as Royston’s) In summary, Chris’ stand is “once saved, always saved”. Ivan/Royston/Truelight’s stand is that it is possible for a believer to lose his salvation. Ivan believes that a true believer will definitely bear fruit. Truelight agrees with this. Royston also believes this. I believe Chris will disagree with this. Royston doesn’t agree with Ivan that if you see a believer not bearing fruit, then you can conclude that he will lose his salvation.