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But we must be consistent 
Getting into the "Secrets of the Vine" (Ivan)
Salvation & works
Thanks LBS, do you want to contribute and form your own conclusion,if any? eom. (Ivan)
Responding
Hi Truelight, Do me a favour first
Ivan, Truelight, Need your help to understand 
common ground: we are all saved in Christ (Keith)
A matter of life and death
I have to explain further because you believe in an empty faith. (True Light)
Faith is believing what God ask you to believe
Hi LBS (Royston Ong)
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Hi Royston, Thank you for your caution. Nevertheless, you can go back to Hebrews/Greeks, but it must never result in inconsistencies/contradictions in the reading of Jn 15: 1-8. And if it does, how can you ever satisfy people like Ivan/Truelight/SBG and help them see that salvation is based only on faith in Christ’s blood alone without deeds of the law. They earnestly believe that they are giving Jn 15:1-8 an honest reading, and if we are less than honest in our reading of the same text, how can we ever hope to help them? Jn 15:1-8 1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. The argument that “take away” in Jn 15:2 means something like lifting up branches doesn’t make sense because it is inconsistent with Jn 15:6 which talks about these branches being cast away into the fire and burnt, which means they have been parted from the main plant, not just lifted up from the mud. It also doesn’t make sense to argue that Jn 15:2 is talking about believers and Jn 15:6 is talking about non-believers. If you say “abide not in me” in Jn 15:6 refers to non-believers, then in Jn 15:2 “Every branch in me that beareth not fruit” you would have to say these branches are abiding in Christ because they are believers. You see the contradiction – how can a branch be unfruitful and still be said to be abiding in Christ when Jn 15:5 it says “He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit:”? If going to the Greeks/Hebrews results in such contradictions, we must only conclude that there is something very wrong in word study process of these theologians/commentary writers. P/S: According to 2 Tim 3:16, All scripture is given by inspiration of God …, so we must regard all scripture as inspired by God. God used different men to put His Words onto paper but at the end of the day God is the author of Scriptures. If you say “I would probably put more emphasis on study of John than Luke or Mark, as John was an eye-witness to the mysteries of Christ and the Holy Spirit, compared to Mark and Luke, for they were only transcribers of what they have heard from the Apostles”, then you must show from Scriptures that that is what God wants us to do, otherwise I must take it that that is coming out of the wisdom/imagination of man, not what God says. |
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Messages
Outline:
The mysteries of Abide in me, AND I in you by Royston Ong, 2001, Nov 05
To further add by Royston Ong, 2001, Nov 05
Hence, nothing about works comes into play, but it follows the same train of thought as by Royston Ong, 2001, Nov 05 
Fully agree with you on this. by Keith, 2001, Nov 05
Maths class by True Light, 2001, Nov 05
Actually, TL. I am afraid it is not at all close to a summation rule, as proposed by both Ivan and yourself eom by Royston Ong, 2001, Nov 06
Hi TL by Keith, 2001, Nov 06
I like your explanation on the baby christian equation. by True Light, 2001, Nov 06
On baby christians and balanced teachings by Keith, 2001, Nov 07
You are right! different approach. by True Light, 2001, Nov 07
True believer? by Keith, 2001, Nov 08
Thanks. EOM by True Light, 2001, Nov 08
Yah yah, am certainly moving along the same wavelength as you are by Royston Ong, 2001, Nov 08
Go ahead, if it helps to make things clearer for all. by Royston Ong, 2001, Nov 05
Still see inconsistencies regarding Jn 15:1-8 by LBS, 2001, Nov 06
What kind of "once saved always saved" do you believe?. by True Light, 2001, Nov 07
Please see post "Recap" by LBS, 2001, Nov 09
TL and SBG are unable to see past it, does not mean they totally disagree by Royston Ong, 2001, Nov 08
Confounded by LBS, 2001, Nov 09
Am a little tired as I reply this.... by Royston Ong, 2001, Nov 10
Understand you are tired by LBS, 2001, Nov 11
Please re-read my earlier posting to you.... by Royston Ong, 2001, Nov 10
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