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On baby christians and balanced teachings 
Getting into the "Secrets of the Vine" (Ivan)
Salvation & works
Thanks LBS, do you want to contribute and form your own conclusion,if any? eom. (Ivan)
Responding
Hi Truelight, Do me a favour first
Ivan, Truelight, Need your help to understand 
common ground: we are all saved in Christ (Keith)
A matter of life and death
I have to explain further because you believe in an empty faith. (True Light)
Faith is believing what God ask you to believe
Hi LBS (Royston Ong)
But we must be consistent
The mysteries of Abide in me, AND I in you (Royston Ong)
To further add (Royston Ong)
Hence, nothing about works comes into play, but it follows the same train of thought as (Royston Ong)
Fully agree with you on this. (Keith)
Maths class (True Light)
Hi TL (Keith)
I like your explanation on the baby christian equation. (True Light)
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Hi TL,
Me: In my view, the equation Faith = Righteouness + 0 can be a valid one (say, for baby Christians). You: I like that and I agree. How about those who chose to be babies?, Does your equation fits this kind of "christians". ***Me again: Obviously, given the right condition and nutrition, a baby who is alive and healthy should grow. If I see a baby who doesn't (or refuses to) grow. I'll ask that baby to think about it's state of life and health. If the baby is dead, I'll share the gospel that gives life. If the baby is unhealthy, I'll share the Word that heals. I seriously doubt that a true believer with the right understanding of the christian faith would choose to remain a baby forever. Me: But I trust that God loves his children too much to want them to remain babies forever. You: The problem is many christians are lazy and they emphasize their worldly things more than Godly things. They chose to be babies, you see. ***Me again: I know. I've been that way for years. And I'm still in the process of learning and growing. That's why I believe that we need constantly encourage one another in our Lord as the bible teaches. The question here is how do we go about doing so? Apparantly, the two of us have adopted a very different approach. Bearing in mind that there are many different kinds of people in various stages of growth in life, I believe God can make good use of us and our different approaches. I, for one, had been lukewarm and lazy as a christian after years of sitting under the so-called balanced teaching, but was transformed (positively) by the "radical" grace teaching. But I acknowledge that my personal experience may not be universally applicable. I therefore do not reject the possibility that another person (who is in a different growth stage in life and has a different set of circumstances to deal with) may benefit from a more "balanced" teaching rather than the "radical" grace teaching. I trust God is in charge. Me: I trust that a true Christian under the right teaching will grow, and as he matures in Faith, he will produce good works. and the equation "Faith = Righteousness + Works" becomes applicable and replaces the initial one "Faith = Righteouness + 0". You: I totally agree with you but what constitutes a true christian. ES said "if you are born again, dont want to serve God, shake your leg until jesus come, God will still love you and bless you"; Can we consider this kind a true christian?. ***Me again: In fact, if I remember correctly, ES did not say those words. He was quoting the words of a missionary. I don't think ES was encouraging a lazy christian life style. On the contrary, ES was showing us an example of a fruitful and extremely hardworking missionary who risk his life for the work of our Lord - a real life example of how a person who believes in radical grace (and said those "offending" words which you quoted above) can still serve God fervently. I think ES is trying to allay the fears of those who believe that such "dangerous" belief (in radical grace) will inevitably lead to a non-productive/licentious life style. do you consider the missionary (who said those words) a true christian? You: Our focus must always be on Christ but we must also constantly remind ourselves to be obedient. ***Me: I believe that if I focus on Christ accurately and see how good He is, I will want to be obedient to Him. I believe that the best way to remind others to be obedient to Christ is not to emphasise on THEIR OBEDIENCE to Christ per se, but to emphasise on the ATTRACTIVENESS and WORTHINESS OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST so that we would want to be obedient to Him. I hope you see that I also view obedience to Christ as important, but I'm approach it from a different angle :-) You: You see, some strikers are lazy and they take for granted. That's why sometimes we must constantly remind them that their roles is to score goals. They must listen to what his boss told them to do. Anyway, in reality, strikers are asked to score goals, and if they failed, out they go. They can't complain because they are bought with a price. ***Me: I agree that there may be lazy strikers who need a good pep talk. But again, what is the best method a coach should use to improve the performance of such strikers? I think it may come down to personal preference again. I would feel that there is a lack of trust and be extremely frustrated if I'm a gifted striker and yet my coach keeps reminding me that my job is to score goals, as if I don't already know that. I would prefer my coach to remind me of my strengths and give me useful pointers on how I can exploit my strengths to overcome my defenders during the match. I feel motivated by faith (of my coach in my abilities)rather than by fear (of the possibility of being kicked out of the team if I don't perform). A "balanced" coaching approach that utilises both faith and fear may work for others, but I don't think it will work for me. I prefer not to be burdened by fear at all. So I believe that as a striker, I would enjoy my game most and hence perform best when I've been given full trust and support by my coach. You: I think there must be a balance. Either too much emphasis on works or grace will pose problems. ***Me: It's a bit dicey here. In principle, I agree that we should always strive for balance in any kind of teachings. But what is balance? How to balance grace and works? If someone throws away grace or reject works totally, that is obviously imbalance. But what if two parties both affirm grace and works but talk about them differently? (This is the kind of situation we are in). The way I see it, balancing grace and works means to see faith (in the grace of God) as the ONLY reason for us to obtain righteousness from God. Good works comes into the picture only as an eventual result that validate to the world that our faith is a living faith. But the way others see it, balancing grace and works means having faith and good works to prove and maintain one's righteouness before God. So... You: Do we agree or disagree? ***Me: I guess unless one of us decides to change the way we see things and the way we interpret what we read in the Scripture, we will have to agree to disagree :-) Let's pray for the Lord's Wisdom to continue to enlighten us, and for Him make good use of us regardless of our limited understanding of Him and His Word. Enjoy His grace, Keith
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Messages
Outline:
You are right! different approach. by True Light, 2001, Nov 07
True believer? by Keith, 2001, Nov 08
Thanks. EOM by True Light, 2001, Nov 08
Yah yah, am certainly moving along the same wavelength as you are by Royston Ong, 2001, Nov 08
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