Recap

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Recap

Forum: Messageboard
Re:

Getting into the "Secrets of the Vine" (Ivan)
Re:

Salvation & works
Re:

Thanks LBS, do you want to contribute and form your own conclusion,if any? eom. (Ivan)
Re:

Responding
Re:

Hi Truelight, Do me a favour first
Date: 2001, Nov 09
From: LBS

Hi Truelight, I would like to clarify with you that I did not say you ignore Romans in your discussion with me. I was reassuring Royston that my belief on salvation is based on the teachings of Rom 1-5, which clearly teaches how a man can be saved today by “faith in his [Christ’s] blood” alone, without works of any other sort. What I was saying is that you did not answer to the clear teachings of Romans about salvation which I pointed out in previous posts. I have mentioned to you that I know what you believe is based very much on verses like Mtt 24:13, Jas 2:20-24, Jn 15:2,8, etc etc. But your reference to these verses doesn’t help resolve the “dilemma” I have with the verses in Romans above. I have made a summary of our previous discussion. Hope you and others can go through and show me where you think I have read the verses wrongly: LBS : Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. How can we ever ever be counted righteous? This verse say .. by faith – by simply believing what God tells you to believe which is “faith in his blood” according to Rom 3:25. Truelight: I don't quite agree. The faith you described above is called partial faith. Only with the inclusion of works can we consider full/perfect faith(James 2:22). We are counted righteous not by faith only, but by faith and works(James 2:20-24). True faith will produce works. LBS: Notice you said “We are counted righteous not by faith only…”? Read Rom 4:5 again. “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” You deal honestly with the Scripture. You said we are counted righteous not by faith only, but Rom 4:5 contradicts what you say. Truelight: [No answer] LBS: I reproduce once again the verses I used to show that we can be saved by faith without works and that our faith in Christ’s death will help secure our eternal destiny. Show me that it is false doctrine: Rom4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. How can we ever ever be counted righteous? This verse say .. by faith – by simply believing what God tells you to believe: “faith in his blood” Rom 3:25. What will happen to everyone that is counted righteous by faith? Rom 9: 30 …whom he justified [counted righteous], them he also glorified [rendered glorious with a new incorruptible body]… Now, Rom 9: 30 says…”whom he justified, them he also glorified”…That is, everyone that is justified by faith will be glorified by God. Has works any role to play in salvation? Rom 11:6 … if it be of works, then is it no more grace: Rom 11:6 says once you bring in works, then it is no longer call grace. If you say, bearing fruits/works has any role to play in salvation, then you can’t say salvation is by grace. But Eph 2:8 says “For by grace are ye saved …” Truelight: The works mentioned in Rom 4:5 is the works of the Law [ceremonial rituals of the law] as mentioned by Ivan. LBS: Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. “deeds of the law” in this verse does not refer to just ceremonial acts of the Mosaic Law as both of you suggested. Read Rom 2:17-23 to see that “deeds of the law” also covers moral laws, what you would call “works of obedience”. In Rom 2 &3, God shows that the chosen nation of Israel, and hence by extension all mankind, was not able to gain justification in His sight by the deeds of the law: Rom 3:20 “Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight…” The law that God gave to the Jews, ie the Mosaic Law, covers over 600 laws; some are ceremonial laws, while others are civil and moral laws. Hence Rom3:28 says that we are justified by faith without deeds of the law, not just ceremonial acts of the law. Truelight/Ivan: [No answer] Ivan: “I am concerned that if we preach "once saved, always saved" we may breed such professing Christians who may bring shame to the name of Christ. Do you agree?” LBS: Good concern, Ivan; but that doesn’t allow anyone to change the gospel that God wants us to believe/preach; you can’t tell people that works play a part in their ultimate salvation. If you do that and if people end up trusting in more than just the blood of Christ for their salvation, the consequence is irreparable, people may not end up in heaven. God says in Gal 1:9 “ As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.” So we can only preach one gospel for salvation. If you and I believe/preach two different gospels, then at least of one of us must be wrong. So hope you can appreciate I am not dwelling in trivial differences in this to-ing and fro-ing with you and Truelight. It is absolutely important that we must agree on what the gospel of our salvation is. If you quote me James, Jn and Matt, I will quote you Romans. Can you see we are in conflict? Your beliefs are based on James, Jn and Matt. But you have to struggle with Romans. If you want to know how to secure your salvation, I will tell you look at Romans; the first 5 chapters God tells us the gentiles sinned, then the Jews given the Mosaic Law sinned, all mankind sinned, so they need the blood of Christ, the work of God on the cross, and then it is finished, what can man do, believe, believe that the work has been done, the penalty of sin paid. This is salvation by grace through faith as presented in the first 5 chapters of Roman. After that? Rom 9:30 “.. them he justified, them he also glorified. Eph 1:13,14 “ In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance”. When does the Holy Spirit come into you? At the point of belief of the right gospel, the gospel of your salvation which Paul says there is only one. What does the Holy Spirit do? Seal you and guarantee your inheritance in the heavenly places in the ages to come. So according to these verses a person is forever saved at the point of belief. Therefore no role as far as works is concerned. So the right gospel cannot include this element of works for salvation in whatever way. Truelight: 1) Do you agree living/saving faith will produce work? 2) If you agree (1), then do you agree that if you see faith, you will see work?. LBS: (1)Your understanding of living/saving faith, which must go hand in hand with works, is taken from James, not Romans. (2) I had shown you that a person must trust in the finished work of God alone to be saved and a person once saved at the point of belief is eternally secure. Nothing to do with the believer’s faithfulness; it is all dependent on God’s faithfulness. Truelight: As for Roman 11:6, the peoples in Roman works not out of faith, they did it just to fulfill the Law, just like the pharisees. Paul is telling them to have faith in God which which will lead to works. LBS: If you look at preceding verse Rom 11:5, it refers to the “remnant according to the election of grace”. This remnant of Israel are saved/elected according to grace. Rom 11:6 takes pain to say it is by grace, grace, got nothing whatsoever to do with works: Rom 11:6 … if it be of works, then is it no more grace: Truelight: It seems that you have shifted to the topic of election and predestination. Sorry, I don't think I can help you cos this is a very difficult topic. I personally believed that there will be peoples(remnant) who are predestinate to be saved eg Paul, but most of them are not. Sometimes, God need to put in or take out some peoples so that His plan will work. We have no right to question God. For those who are not predestinate, they are saved by faith in Jesus Christ, and faith is a respond to God's grace. LBS: You missed my point. I am not going into a discussion of election and predestination. Still at the same topic of “once saved, always saved”. I am telling you to look at the context of Rom 11:6 which is not referring to, in your words, “peoples in Roman [who] works not out of faith, they did it just to fulfill the Law, just like the pharisees”. Truelight: “The scriptures you quoted in Romans is talking about those who are predestinated to be saved.” LBS: Are you serious when you said the above, that Romans is talking about a certain group of people that are destined to be saved, which means does not apply to people like you or me? Truelight: Which verse are you referring to?, Rom 3:25,28 or Rom 11:5?. If it is Rom 11:5, then Paul is not referring to us... LBS: Are you saying that Rom 11:5,6 is talking about a group of people who are predestined to be saved by grace, without works? And elsewhere it teaches people are saved by works, not grace alone? What about Eph 2:8 “For by grace are ye saved”, does this apply to the same group of people in Rom 11:5,6? Note this discussion on Rom 11:5,6 arose because I pointed out that you can’t say our salvation is based on grace if you say bearing fruits/works has a role in our salvation. If you say that, then you contradicts Eph 2:8 which says “For by grace are ye saved …”: Rom 11:6 … if it be of works, then is it no more grace: Rom 11:6 says once you bring in works, then it is no longer call grace. If you say, bearing fruits/works has any role to play in salvation, then you can’t say salvation is by grace. But Eph 2:8 says “For by grace are ye saved …” Truelight: In Rom 3:25,28, Paul is asking the saints to focus on faith rather than works because some saints are doing "works" without faith at all. Paul does not mean that there must be no works, see Rom 3:31. LBS: The gospel of salvation that Paul presented in Rom 3:25,28 is meant for obedience of every one in Rome who would believe, in fact, for all men because "… all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" Rom 3:23 So Rom 3:25,28 is not about “Paul … asking the saints to focus on faith rather than works because some saints are doing "works" without faith at all”. It is presenting the gospel of salvation to anyone who would believe, not focusing on people who are already saved.