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Closing the gap in our understanding? 
Getting into the "Secrets of the Vine" (Ivan)
Salvation & works
Thanks LBS, do you want to contribute and form your own conclusion,if any? eom. (Ivan)
Responding
Hi Truelight, Do me a favour first
Recap 
Please reconsider (Ivan)
The reason for this discussion
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Hi Ivan, Are we beginning to close the gap in our understanding? Let me ask you 2 things : 1. What gospel do you believe and preach? If someone wants to know how to be saved, would you show the person from Rom 1-5 that to be saved, he just needs to believe that Christ died for his sins and his works now or in the future has nothing to do to help him gain eternal life? If your answer is a resounding yes, then we are definitely in agreement. 2. Do you agree with the following? Rom4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. How can we ever ever be counted righteous? This verse say .. by faith – by simply believing what God tells you to believe: “faith in his blood” Rom 3:25. What will happen to everyone that is counted righteous by faith? Rom 9: 30 …whom he justified [counted righteous], them he also glorified [rendered glorious with a new incorruptible body]… Now, Rom 9: 30 says…”whom he justified, them he also glorified”…That is, everyone that is justified by faith will be glorified by God. Has works any role to play in salvation? Rom 11:6 … if it be of works, then is it no more grace: Rom 11:6 says once you bring in works, then it is no longer call grace. If you say, bearing fruits/works has any role to play in salvation, then you can’t say salvation is by grace. But Eph 2:8 says “For by grace are ye saved …” Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. “deeds of the law” in this verse does not refer to just ceremonial acts of the Mosaic Law as both of you suggested. Read Rom 2:17-23 to see that “deeds of the law” also covers moral laws, what you would call “works of obedience”. In Rom 2 &3, God shows that the chosen nation of Israel, and hence by extension all mankind, was not able to gain justification in His sight by the deeds of the law: Rom 3:20 “Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight…” The law that God gave to the Jews, ie the Mosaic Law, covers over 600 laws; some are ceremonial laws, while others are civil and moral laws. Hence Rom3:28 says that we are justified by faith without deeds of the law, not just ceremonial acts of the law. |
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O gosh! The debate is going to repeat itself one more time? by saved-by-grace, 2001, Nov 12
For your sake who is still on the milk of God's word and not ready for solid food, by Ivan, 2001, Nov 12
Wrapping up by LBS, 2001, Nov 17
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