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What, what, what? 
Which church? (True Light)
Whichever church you "go to" (RTC)
So you are going to a man-setup church, independant church? eom (Emmanuel)
Where did you get that from? (RTC)
Thats where your problem lies ahead (Emmanuel)
What problem? (RTC)
The problem....... (Emmanuel)
Is that all? (RTC)
Wrong, wrong, wrong! (Emmanuel)
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We talk on basis one by one, as I said a church is made up of community of believers, of different positions held, read eph 4:16. ++OK. But believers do not hold positions, they simply function according to the measure of grace given to them. The bible is a guide towards spiritualhood, not a guide to build whats in a church fundamentally. ++But neither is the Bible silent about how Christ builds His church! They met as the starting growth of a church without an official building or plaza to gather around and worship. Thus, the breaking of bread shown there synbolized brotherhood and integrity of hearty meal sharing with with sincerity of mind, not fundamentally and 100% of holding holy communion daily. ++Can you demonstrate from the NT that it is in the minds of the apostles or the early believers to look forward to constructing church buildings? And you have to read Eric Svendsen’s book about the Lord’s Supper. In the early church, the Lord’s Supper was ALWAYS in the context of a meal. Holy See in nature by itself, is termed after the NT, that he makes up part of the committee responsible for church leadership, take a look at the Jerusalem Council and how Peter acted in it. ++That doesn’t prove a see. It is simply the church in action to a serious issue. Some people from Jerusalem went down to Galatia to preach a Gospel plus circumcision. Naturally the problem had to be addressed at its origins. I read how Peter acted in it, not like a pope. Hmmm…perhaps the RCC was mistaken? A Pope is not in fully control except the terms of ex cathedra, which is then before, agreed by the rest of the magisterium, the Vatican Council. ++That’s not the point isn’t it? The point is that there is no basis for such a hierarchy in the NT. I have cleared this a/m, the whole magisterium is responsible for the final call for doctrinal issues with prayers and guidiance of the Holy Spirit. Not just the Pope alone, thankyou. ++Which begs the question, what is this magisterium and on what basis do they derive its existence? A diocese is like a Bishop controlling the church, whereby faults and errors that are seen, can be corrected. Note Paul's letters and calling to his elders in everywhere on how to manage and correct the believers' faith.( The word diocese, is given after NT, don't presume that even every word or terms found in church usage today must be fitting exactly like those found in scripture, haha! ++Then I guess it really is not biblical after all. No one has control over any church. The one who did was denounced by John the apostle, a Diotrephes who loved the pre-eminence. Paul never controlled any churches he planted. The language of the apostles and church leaders are that of moral suasion, not from any official capacity. Authority is derived from one’s walk with Jesus, not vested in one’s rank in the hierarchical setup. Church came into existence by the help of the Holy Spirit and God's appointed Holy Apostles and the church elders. ++Well said, at this point. Since so-called "house church" is shown in NT by your perception, tell me more about them thru' out from AD 900 onwards and centuries to the 14th? Show me relatively the proofs? I don't need modern answers to it, just the real early churches after NT, between 3rd to 14th centuries. ++You contradict yourself. You imply that I cook up the house church from the NT, yet you told me that house churches existed at least for 10 centuries. Make up your mind. And what kind of proofs do you want? I can only point you to books. I’m sure you know some of these books I mentioned earlier. God's words are not confined to writtings, I have told you before, its words handed orally down from the apostles thru' out the centuries, the Living church today is the living proof. Liturgy is another proof not made by Roman traditions, but passed down from the apostolic succession, in the form of orally passed down from ages to ages. ++That’s the RCC way of saying that they can do whatever they like and teach whatever they like, since they have started from the assumption that the church need not be bound by the writings of Scriptures. Perhaps you should go back and read church history all over again. The church fathers always refer to the OT and NT writings. They certainly never shouted sola scriptura but they certainly believed it! You are wrong here. Faith, Hope and Charity are the key points. Our great commission passed down by Christ is to do charity and thru' it, evangelisation, including our hope in serving the Lord sincerely. ++And do I dispute that? Of course not. What I was disputing was your way of avoiding the topic by pointing to the work of evangelism and charity. Forget about your comments, our Catholic Church is doing well, and thus expanding by the guidiance of the Holy Spirit. ++Perhaps you are not aware of the program titled “Catholics in Crisis”? We expect criticism and attacks, just as it was during the Arianism and Montanism times, till now on fundamental attacks, we stand unitedly in one faith that we perservere in holding on to our doctrines. ++I’m sure you will persevere and hang on to your traditions. However I see that your loyalty is first to the mammoth institution called the RCC, not the Scriptures. In a well organised church, we are well taken care of in terms of any problems, not led by the confusing "truths" founded by many different denominations, leaders, or theologians. ++That’s the way it is. But it is no different in the RCC, and you had the “advantage” of the pope and the magisterium! Today oneness debate is here, tomorrow Eternal security is there, and so on.....and yet all still belonged to the same Protestant sector, isn't it confusing, who to believe? Haha. If you don't like our Pope, so be it, nobody gonna stop you. Lolz. ++That simply goes to show how limited we as humans are, and the seriously in which people want to understand the Word of God, rather than abdicate their responsibility to think and study to a group of elites called the magisterium. I have no like or dislike for the pope. I am not against him. I am saying that there is no biblical justification for the entire RCC setup and many of the doctrines taught. |
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