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Ivan...my position on the Rapture 
Ivan....repost on pretrib discussion.... (prophet)
Which trib? (Ivan)
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You said..... <<If you know the general tribulation mentioned in certain parts of Scriptures is distinctly different from the Great Tribulation, then you will be able to see that the wrath of God which form part of the Great Tribulation judgment of God upon all those who reject Jesus, the RIGHTEOUS ONE. Remember the Great Tribulation will last for 7 years and the final 3.5 years is usually referred to as the Wrath of God.>> The wrath of God is part of the tribulation? I do not think so.Remember the AC makes peace in the first 3.5 years and then war in the next 3.5 years. This is the great Tribulation. If you look at what Paul wrote: "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air....For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night....But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief" - (1 Thess. 4:16-17, 5:2-4). Jesus will rapture the saints with the sound of a trump. Which trump? Paul wrote, "Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" - (1 Cor. 15:51-52). When is the last trump? According to the Revelation there are seven trumpets during the Great Tribulation. The seventh and last trumpet recorded in Scripture is sounded on the last day of the tribulation: "And the seventh angel sounded [the seventh and last trumpet]; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ, and he shall reign for ever and ever....And the nations were angry, and thy wrath [from which the saints were delivered] is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints...." - (Rev. 11:15-18). This shows that the wrath is Different from the great tribulation of the AC. Also.... In Revelation 6:9-11 it says, "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held....And white robes were given unto every one of them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow-servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. In the next chapter the apostle John saw not just Jews but a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes....And one of the elders [around the throne] answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of [the] great tribulation...." - (7:9, 13-14). This shows that the saints will go thro the great tribulations. <<<<In fact, there are 2 comings of the Lord Jesus. The first one, at the Rapture of the Church in the clouds. The second one is when His feet touched down at Mt Olives for the Battle of Armageddon(Rev 16:16; Zech 14:3-5).>> It may be the same event. <<<According to Rev 3:10, our Lord Jesus says that the church in Philadelphia will be kept from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world....." >>> What is the hour of trail? It can be the wrath?? We can see from the scriptures that tribulations is a 'norm' for believers. Paul said, "...We glory in tribulations (thlipsis) also: knowing that tribulation (thlipsis) worketh patience" - (Rom. 5:3). This is the same Greek word used in Revelation when John saw a great multitude in white robes and one of the elders around the throne said, "These are they which came out of [the] great tribulation (thlipsis)...." - (7:9, 13-14). The Greek noun thlipsis was also used in Acts 11:19 concerning the persecution of the Church at the time of Stephen's martyrdom and is rendered "persecution." "In the world ye shall have tribulation...." - (John 16:33). "...We must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God" - (Acts 4:22). "Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you...for my sake....Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you" - (Mt. 5:10-12). Tribulation and persecution is not the wrath of God. Again, persecution and martyrdom is the New Testament norm. The wrath of God that Christians will be kept from is the wrath of the last day and, of course, the wrath of the Lake of Fire. Those who have been saved by Jesus have already been delivered from the eternal Lake of Fire which is the wrath to come. Paul wrote, "...Jesus...delivered us [past tense] from the wrath to come" - (1 Thess. 1:10). I therefore believe in posttrib rapture reasoning which can be satisfied by the explanation of the scriptures. The saints will go through the tribulation depicted in the Revelation. The Antichrist will be given power "to make war with the saints, and to overcome them" - (Rev. 13:7). Christians who are compromisers before the Great Tribulation are not going to be overcomers through it. Most Christians especially as I have mentioned who are easy going believeing in all the good things of this life to be associated with the blessings of God are not spiritually ready to go through that which is on the horizon if it is as late as I think it is. The days of the Great Tribulation will be the worst time that this world has ever seen. Probably not many Christians will be ready to go through the Great Tribulation, but believing that you are going to be raptured out before it begins is certainly not conducive to spiritual preparation for it. In Christ Jesus prophet |
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Messages
Outline:
The problem with post-trib view by Ivan, 2001, Nov 27
Untitled by prophet, 2001, Nov 28
Be counted worthy to escape by Ivan, 2001, Nov 29
Nope by prophet, 2001, Nov 29 
Remain faithful by Ivan, 2001, Nov 29
Persecution by prophet, 2001, Nov 30
Hey Hey by John Doe 666, 2001, Nov 30
The Bride of Jesus by Ivan, 2001, Nov 30
I will be ready..... by prophet, 2001, Nov 30
Let's sound the warning for I hear the sound of the pounding hoofs of the 4 horses of Apocalypse approaching. eom. by Ivan, 2001, Nov 30
Untitled by prophet, 2001, Nov 30
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