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Untitled 
Ivan....repost on pretrib discussion.... (prophet)
Which trib? (Ivan)
Ivan...my position on the Rapture (prophet)
The problem with post-trib view (Ivan)
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A problem with pritrib....
Luke21
"And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; men's hearts failing them for fear and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption [the redemption of the saints] draweth nigh." These things will happen on the last day of the Great Tribulation.
Again in Matthew , the 'parousia' is after the tribulation a, so where does it say before? 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other <<<According to you, if the Church is raptured at the post-trib, then we cannot reconcile the fact that Jesus returns to Earth with His saints to set up the Millennial rule right at the end of 7 years and how do you accommodate the Marriage Supper of the Lamb celebration unless the Church has raptured before the Great Tribulation to participate in this event before Jesus sets up the Millennial rule with His saints.>>> The 'return' and the 'parousia' are the same events. There is only 1 'return'. In Rev14 and 16 the Lord indicates His return, Rev16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed [is] he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame Does this sound the same as Matthew? This is the parousia. Thw wrath is after this appearing. Remember it does take long for the saints to rapture...twinkling of an eye... we are in the air with Him and He lands at Armmagedon for the battle ( the Marriage Supper) The Marriage Supper of the Lamb is actually the victory against all those who has gone against the Lord. Look at Rev 19 16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all [men, both] free and bond, both small and great. 19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which [sword] proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. This will then end up with the mellenial rule where the Devil is locked up (Rev 20) ant then released again. <<<I agree that Christians have gone through tribulations and persecutions for living godly lives and proclaiming the WAY. And I cannot agree that the Church will go through the Great Tribulation which is God's judgment upon the rest of the world who reject Jesus. There will be opportunities given again (2nd chance) for people to hear the gospel and receive Jesus. And these Christians will go through the tribulation and persecution of AC rule during the Great Tribulation (only the first 3.5 years) and midway they will be raptured which is recorded in Rev 7:14 before the outpouring of the Wrath of God which is symbolised by the Trumpet and Bowl judgments during the 2nd half of the Great Tribulation.>>> As I have said the Wrath and the tribulation is different. The greek word for tribulation and wrath is different. Why do you say that the AC persecutes in the first 3.5 years? Daniel indicates otherwise. First 3.5 years of peace and then 3.5 years of persecution by the AC. <<<Furthermore, the word "church" is not mentioned from Rev 4:1 till you hit the word "church" at Rev 22:16 when Apostle John picks up his call to the churches to look forward and welcome the return of the Lord for His bride. It signifies the closure of the Church Age with the Rapture of the Church before the 7 years of Great Tribulation which spans from Rev 4 to Rev 18. >>> Although the word 'church' is not mentioned after Rev3, (except that "churches" is mentioned in 22:16), but the "saints" are referred to more than a dozen times after chapter 3. And Jesus said, For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened - (Mt. 24:21-22). Now who are the saints in the scriptures??? <<<You can be prepared if you heed the call to "watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming" (Mt 24:42). You may miss it if you are not watching for His return before the Great Tribulation. I do not wish to go with you through the Tribulation because I have been through sufferings and little persecution all these years here on earth as a Christian.>>> My brother, even if He comes before, I am ready. I am watching as it is. I am sure that your suffering now will prepare you for the greater one to come if need be. But Be encouraged because our Redemption is drawing nigh! But BE PREPARED, those aho overcometh will be saved ...FOR ETERNITY! Amen! In Christ Jesus prophet
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Messages
Outline:
Be counted worthy to escape by Ivan, 2001, Nov 29
Nope by prophet, 2001, Nov 29 
Remain faithful by Ivan, 2001, Nov 29
Persecution by prophet, 2001, Nov 30
Hey Hey by John Doe 666, 2001, Nov 30
The Bride of Jesus by Ivan, 2001, Nov 30
I will be ready..... by prophet, 2001, Nov 30
Let's sound the warning for I hear the sound of the pounding hoofs of the 4 horses of Apocalypse approaching. eom. by Ivan, 2001, Nov 30
Untitled by prophet, 2001, Nov 30
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