In times like these

HEADER FOR MessageBoard II

(Click picture to go back to Table of Contents)

Welcome to Messageboard II

Agora Messageboard now functions as a quorum. Please click to join as a member. We want to hear from you... A query that needs an answer, a word to uplift the people, a statement of concern that needs prayer, a cry for help...

God bless you...

Previous Messageboard have been archived.

In times like these

Forum: Messageboard
Re:

church in Jurong West vicinity
Re:

City Harvest (Liz R.)
Re:

Sorry, City Harvest is not Traditional Church, Lolz...eom (Emmanuel)
Re:

The true City (Ivan)
Re:

Impressive (RTC)
Re:

What great feats of men to turn the wasteland into a holy masterpiece sanctuary of God! (Ivan)
Re:

Reasons??? (RTC)
Re:

I believe every building of a new church is a testimony of the members' faith in a great God (Ivan)
Re:

I can see that, but can you see this? (RTC)
Date: 2001, Dec 27
From: Ivan Ivan

YOU:++I can see the faith that is certainly involved in a project of such mammoth proportions and cost. That's no denial of that. Question is, should our faith be channeled in this direction? Is there a biblical basis for this?
ME: If you are familiar with the building of God's temple in the book of Haggai, you'll not have question the creation of the new CHC. Are you more interested in building your glorious home, etc than the church of God?
YOU:++In the light of the new covenant, and on the basis of the NT practices, I believe that the fixation and hype on the church building is misplaced and unjustified.
ME: Are you being realistic? Are you still living in those times? I must say you cannot differentiate or fail to make applications by making it relevant in our times; you can adopt the principles and not stick to the old mode of application to buildings, transport, communication systems, the whole infrastructure in a certain place, etc. I am surprised by your old mode of thinking too in this regard. I like to believe that the new CHC of such a size will meet and serve their needs as a Sanctuary and a School of Theology, and can further accommodate multiple ministries for outreach purposes. So, I maintain the fixation is well-placed and it is no hype; it is the height they have reached and I must say the depth as well they have gone into their experiences with God which is so beautifully symbolised by the 8ight-storey building of 4-storey high rising above ground and 4-storey deep below the ground. Will you give glory to God with me for this glorious building?
YOU:++That's surely one way of looking at it. The other way is to ask, where in the Bible do we hear of glorious church buildings? And how does having a building speaks of faith in God? What about those who CHOOSE not to have church buildings of the CHC level? Are such buildings less glorious? Do such buildings testify of God's lesser faithfulness and goodness? And also, what about those who CHOOSE not to have church buildings at all? Are they considered men of little or no faith?
ME: As our Lord Jesus says, "Be it done, according to your faith." What are you trying to drive at by reducing God's stature in accordance to the size of the building. Don't you ever be fooled by such arguments or thinking? It is our faith in a great God that makes the difference. By all means, if you want to build a small church building that will fit your simple requirements of providing for a Sanctuary and classrooms for nursery children. Or you want to build one once and for all and that one size fits all. It is still glorifying to God. Or you want to build one that allow you to see through the heavens while you worship God like the magnificent Crystal Cathedral-an all-glass structure-in Garden Grove, California whose Senior Pastor is Rev Dr Robert Schuller. It sure glorifies God!
YOU++The early church went through thick and thin, but it surely wasn't for building a church premises! Again my question is, should you be building it in the first place? What motivates the desire to have that "glorious" building? Is that motivation consistent with God's revelation in the NT?
ME: See my reply before the one above. I am sure they have follow the example of our early church leaders in exercising enduring faith. All I have to say is that you are not in touch with reality and you are not making applications that are relevant in our times. Are you denying even the computer times where cyber-forum is made possible and we are so much part of it. Only God sees the inner motives of men; we only see the workings of men in things pertaining to God.
YOU++I'm not too sure if this is a reward or is it a forgone conclusion. I mean, with $43m you CAN do a lot of things. And neither do I believe that among the things God wants us to seek Him for, that the Bible teaches us to seek God for a church building.
ME: You said in your heading "I can see that", and yet you refuse to see the reward part of Heb 11:6. Then you are incoherent in your understanding of Scriptures. God rewards or answers those who ask, seek and knock by faith. Did you ever ask whether it is God's will to have a church building. Or do you still insist that unless the Bible says specifically, "Arise and build the CHC" then it is OK to build. How about things like smoking, reading of pornography, etc which are not mentioned? Is it God's will?
YOU++Now you are coming personal. That's the problem. When someone ask you to give some reasons for having a church building, you actually turn it into an issue concerning the questioner. Maybe I should ask you back some more questions. How big was the faith of the early church? They did not trust God for a church building. My church? It's not mine, and neither do I speak of the believers that meet in my house as "my church". It's a language that I avoid because it is sectarian and not biblical. Maybe you should read the NT again and see what makes the NT church so dynamic as to turn the world upside down. FYI, they did not need church edifices to justify evangelism. Evangelism is done by believers in their daily lives in the early church, not by having a church building. Is there not something we can learn from them?
ME: Did you read about the church in Antioch which becomes a mission base to send out missionaries to evangelise the then known world? You are just trying to argue for argument sake which is unhealthy. You cannot relate the church building esp CHC with mission works and equipping of Christian workers by the School of Theology, etc with evangelism. How sad?
YOU++Is having a central welfare fund a litmus test for caring of God's people? Let me share with you how we would do things. Currently we have no needy person in our midst. But if and when we do, the church would come together to think of how we can support that person. In fact, the church doesn't even need to come together to do something. Any believer can initiate to help the needy brother. Any arrangement is temporary and meant to meet a specific need at a point in time. Any money or contribution is given directly to the person. Everyone knows who and how much he is giving to.
ME: How is it the world is smarter than the Christians? If they can think of a central provident fund which looks after the financial needs in old age, why not the church think of a central welfare fund (CWF) to look after the financial needs of the members in times of economic crisis when jobs are scarce and members need the basic food at the table daily to survive. Do we have to wait till the people go hungry to be so desperately looking for food that they start looting supermarkets like the situation in Argentina. Will we learn? Can we tie the church tithing by members to provide for CWF? Anyone care to comment?