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RTC: Rest The Case. 
church in Jurong West vicinity
City Harvest (Liz R.)
Sorry, City Harvest is not Traditional Church, Lolz...eom (Emmanuel)
The true City (Ivan)
Impressive (RTC)
What great feats of men to turn the wasteland into a holy masterpiece sanctuary of God! (Ivan)
Reasons??? (RTC)
I believe every building of a new church is a testimony of the members' faith in a great God (Ivan)
I can see that, but can you see this? (RTC)
In times like these (Ivan)
If so... (John Doe 666)
Who is missing: "ch_rch" (Ivan)
Did you miss it? (John Doe 666)
Yah, I understand but can we have both and all done to glorify God. eom. (Ivan)
Not possible if the glory has already been given to the magnificant building....eom (John Doe 666)
We don't give glory to a building; we give glory to God by building the new CHC.eom. (Ivan)
Out of Sync (RTC)
Out of Step (Ivan)
Yep, resistant to change (RTC)
Various "types" of churches (Ivan)
Types of churches (RTC)
Going by your humanistic definitions, how do you define "a church without walls"? Is it institutional or organic? (Ivan)
Define this first (RTC)
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YOU++What do you mean by insinuating that I am using humanistic definitions? Can you explain that?
ME: These are languages of men used to try to define something spiritual. Can you define the "beauty of the Lord?" YOU++Like what? In what way does 1 Cor 14:26 fail to express what God intends? Sure, church life is better experienced than talked about, but if we are not talking the language of the Scriptures, I don't see how our experience will be anywhere near what they are talking about. ME: This can also be experienced in a home cell with the necessary structure in place without discounting 1 Cor 14:26. Structure with accountability is necessary to get the work done, and structure should be maintained in areas such as reporting, the lesson to be taught, the size of groups, the frequency, length and format of the meeting. Without structure, no one really knows if the sheep are cared for and the lambs are fed. When everyone does their own thing, very little is accomplished, however when biblical structure is in place we bear much fruit or ending up frustrated when not observed. YOU++You are probably alluding to a fantastic mega-church Sunday service, with all the pomp and the glamour and the excitement. Many associate such a service (especially if it is seamless in its transitions) as a glorious service. Remove the hype of the glitter and sound and one is left to wonder what's underneath. No, I'm talking about experiencing a meeting where it is all about Jesus, and none of man. I'm talking about a meeting where Jesus Christ is expressed in that meeting, in the simplicity of believers coming together, without pomp and glamour, believers laughing together, crying together, struggling together, eating together, admonishing one another, encouraging one another etc. Such meetings leave an impact on believers that no worship service can. ME: As our Lord Jesus is omnipresent, such times of refreshing can be experienced in a house church or house group or church building and even all at the same time all over the world for the Bible says "times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord." It is not enough to just express Jesus; we are to exalt Jesus; we are to enthrone Him for God inhabits the praises of His people; for then we can experience the sweet presence of the Lord. Nothing touches the heart of Jesus more than "the fruit of our lips giving thanks to His name." I hope it is not a "pity party." I don't think you can experience what is biblical "times of refreshing" when you are just simply fellowshipping and not worshipping Him. What kind of impact can you have if you simply "pat" each other on the backs? We need the Spirit impartation of His Word and His refreshing touch to make a permanent difference in our lives. YOU++I don't see why you would think that I am emphasizing organic at the expense of the spiritual. If you would bother to read my previous postings (rather than try to take pot shots) you would have read that I believe the church is a spiritual creation, born from above, requiring spiritual principles that many times are not the ways of the world. If you want to turn the world upside down, you will need the radical ways of the NT church. ME: What I am saying is that you should not use such word "organic" for it may be miscontrued as something natural as in organic products whereas the spiritual birth is something supernatural. Please re-think. The secret in turning the world upside down is the touch of Jesus. As recorded in Acts, the Sanhedrin "perceived that they were uneducated and untrained men, they marvelled. And they realised that they had been with Jesus." It is "JESUS WITH THEM" that makes the difference. YOU++Can we have the wine and ignore the wineskin? I submit to you that today, and for the past 1,700 years, the church has been using the old wineskin to contain the wine. We have gone back to the ways of the temples and priests, the organisation and the hierarchy. Whatever breakthrough the Holy Spirit has done through the years have ended up being short-circuited by man's ways of trying to contain the wine in his own ways, adopting the ways of the world. Then later on we cry for revival and a fresh outpouring. You should start thinking about the wine and the wineskin, they go together. ME: The old forms of Judaism cannot contain the spiritual freshness of the gospel of grace. It is wrong application of "wine and wineskin". Because Jesus has brought in the New which supersedes the Old. We as new creation can experience the constant state of revival and refreshing when we are with Jesus. Your understanding needs to be re-examined in the light of the Holy Scriptures. YOU++I see this as simply another high sounding call to ignore what is being discussed and just pursue the Spirit, as if it will all work out automatically. Well, certainly the history of the church does not attest to this. Our minds must be renewed by the Word of God, who has inspired men to write them down for our instruction. ME: If you continue to pursue your own interests and stick to your positions, obviously you will be Resistant To Change, and I may have to Rest The Case for it is not bearing fruit. And you just fail to answer my question to define "a church without walls."
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Messages
Outline:
Not so fast by RTC, 2002, Jan 07
THE BIG QUESTION by Ivan, 2002, Jan 07
The BIG answer by RTC, 2002, Jan 08
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