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Not so fast 
church in Jurong West vicinity 
City Harvest (Liz R.)
Sorry, City Harvest is not Traditional Church, Lolz...eom (Emmanuel)
The true City (Ivan)
Impressive (RTC)
What great feats of men to turn the wasteland into a holy masterpiece sanctuary of God! (Ivan)
Reasons??? (RTC)
I believe every building of a new church is a testimony of the members' faith in a great God (Ivan)
I can see that, but can you see this? (RTC)
In times like these (Ivan)
If so... (John Doe 666)
Who is missing: "ch_rch" (Ivan)
Did you miss it? (John Doe 666)
Yah, I understand but can we have both and all done to glorify God. eom. (Ivan)
Not possible if the glory has already been given to the magnificant building....eom (John Doe 666)
We don't give glory to a building; we give glory to God by building the new CHC.eom. (Ivan)
Out of Sync (RTC)
Out of Step (Ivan)
Yep, resistant to change (RTC)
Various "types" of churches (Ivan)
Types of churches (RTC)
Going by your humanistic definitions, how do you define "a church without walls"? Is it institutional or organic? (Ivan)
Define this first (RTC)
RTC: Rest The Case. (Ivan)
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ME: These are languages of men used to try to define something spiritual. Can you define the "beauty of the Lord?" ++I see. This can also be experienced in a home cell with the necessary structure in place without discounting 1 Cor 14:26. ++The question is, does it happen in the cell group? And what is the basis for discounting it in the Sunday service in the first place? Structure with accountability is necessary to get the work done, and structure should be maintained in areas such as reporting, the lesson to be taught, the size of groups, the frequency, length and format of the meeting. Without structure, no one really knows if the sheep are cared for and the lambs are fed. When everyone does their own thing, very little is accomplished, however when biblical structure is in place we bear much fruit or ending up frustrated when not observed. ++In the first place you failed to explain what is the biblical structure you are talking about. Secondly, you also fail to see that the early church did a great job to turning the world upside down without the institutional structure you are referring to. If I were to ask you out of the blue to pictorially describe the church structure, I believe you would by default draw me the organisational chart with the boxes of positions to be filled, an org chart not unlike that of IBM or HP. That is where the problem lies. You have adopted the structure of the secular world and imposed it onto the church. And what is most amazing is that you can declare that to be biblical! Here you would do well to read Lawrence Richards book on "Church Leadership" to appreciate the biblical "structure" of the church. As our Lord Jesus is omnipresent, such times of refreshing can be experienced in a house church or house group or church building and even all at the same time all over the world for the Bible says "times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord." ++Are you sure that the Sunday service is structured for 1 Cor 14:26 to take place? Or are you contented with limiting such expression to the exceptional small meetings. And looking at the structured cell groups meetings, one wonders if anything like 1 Cor 14:26 takes place at all. Probably the only person bringing the songs is the assigned song leader, the one bringing the word is the cell leader. The rest are simply to respond to the leading and move with the flow. It is not enough to just express Jesus; we are to exalt Jesus; we are to enthrone Him for God inhabits the praises of His people; for then we can experience the sweet presence of the Lord. Nothing touches the heart of Jesus more than "the fruit of our lips giving thanks to His name." I hope it is not a "pity party." I don't think you can experience what is biblical "times of refreshing" when you are just simply fellowshipping and not worshipping Him. ++I can see that you are alluding to that time of worship experience whereby the song leader leads a huge congregation through a series of praise and worship time. Hey, I've been through that for many years. I have also led the church in worship on numerous occasions and each time I have enjoyed it. I have also experienced the passion of being in the festival of praise events and participating in the worship of big churches. I'm not alien to that. Yet when I take this experience and match that against Scripture, I do not see how that can be justified from the Scriptures. As long as one man runs the show, 1 Cor 14:26 is being violated. What kind of impact can you have if you simply "pat" each other on the backs? We need the Spirit impartation of His Word and His refreshing touch to make a permanent difference in our lives. ++You are guilty of two things here. First, you have intentionally painted a false picture of house church gatherings as nothing more than patting each other on the backs kind of meetings. Second, you have belittled the Scriptures in relegating 1 Cor 14:26 to little more than a time of fellowship with little impact. If you have at all understood what I have been saying all along, it is that apart from the Spirit's leading, there is no church life to be experienced. hat I am saying is that you should not use such word "organic" for it may be miscontrued as something natural as in organic products whereas the spiritual birth is something supernatural. Please re-think. ++Organic is best used to desribe something that is alive, not artificial. As such, it is the appropriate word to use in desribing the Body of Christ and what it should be. Just as the human body is an organic being, so is the Body of Christ. She is organic and free, with every limb and ligament functioning in direct relationship to the Head. Please rethink this. Church today can hardly be described as organic. Apart from the planned programs and services and paid clergy to support the body, the Body can hardly function on her own freely. Whatever life that exist is in danger of being snuffed out as it is being encapsulated by man-made structures and traditions. The secret in turning the world upside down is the touch of Jesus. As recorded in Acts, the Sanhedrin "perceived that they were uneducated and untrained men, they marvelled. And they realised that they had been with Jesus." It is "JESUS WITH THEM" that makes the difference. ++I don't disagree with you on this. But the words recorded in Acts seems not to match with current Christendom thinking, which is more impressed with the educated and trained men in seminaries. We are more impressed with those who can post many qualifications on their name cards. Furthermore, with such qualifications you can attain the "Rev" title. If you are honest with yourself, one of the arguments you would have used would be that those in the IC are seminary trained versus those who are in the house church setting. The old forms of Judaism cannot contain the spiritual freshness of the gospel of grace. It is wrong application of "wine and wineskin". Because Jesus has brought in the New which supersedes the Old. We as new creation can experience the constant state of revival and refreshing when we are with Jesus. Your understanding needs to be re-examined in the light of the Holy Scriptures. ++Yet you fail to see that in today's ways of doing church, your understanding fail to match up to your practices. You did not practice what you mouth off your lips. I am pretty sure that you would have mustered the OT examples of temples to justify church buildings, priests to justify the paid clergy, and OT examples of Moses and David as justification for the SP model of church leadership today. If you continue to pursue your own interests and stick to your positions, obviously you will be Resistant To Change, and I may have to Rest The Case for it is not bearing fruit. ++Am I pursuing my own interests or am I telling you what the Word of God says? Indeed, I stick to what God says in His Word. In our discussions you have hardly used Scriptures to support your practices. Are you allowing God's Word to guide your practice or are you reinterpreting God's Word to suit your practice? You charge me with being resistant to change (apparently overlooking the fact that I have changed after being in the IC for almost two decades)The problem today is that we are so susceptible to change, especially to worldly forms and cultures! In trying to draw people into our church membership, we have (for the cause of world evangelisation) adopted the ways of the world (under the term of being culturally relevant and seeker sensitive), without thinking how such things would affect church life. The new hermenuetic we practice is, forget the form, we just need the substance. Or, forget the practice, it is the principle that is more important. And through some sort of darwinian reasoning, we have rationalised away Scriptural practices as giving way to new and better ways of modern methods over the centuries. And you just fail to answer my question to define "a church without walls." ++Strange isn't it? I am taken to task for not answering your one question when you have repeatedly failed to answer many questions which I posed to you. Isn't it interesting that you would ask me this question, when in the first place, it is the IC mindset that gave rise to the church with walls? In fact, the IC today gave us the church with all sorts of walls, physical walls, denominational walls, worship styles walls, and many more walls. Like a person, the church is better described than defined. Can I define Ivan? No. But can I describe you? That's easier. The church is a body of blood-bought believers (with Christ as head), being assembled into a holy temple (with Christ as cornerstone). It has no divisions and will recognise none within the body. It allows no doctrines which do not strike at the essence of being a Christian to come between one another. In this I believe the house church expression and paradigm reinforces this description of church more than the IC. |
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Messages
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THE BIG QUESTION by Ivan, 2002, Jan 07
The BIG answer by RTC, 2002, Jan 08
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