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church in Jurong West vicinity 
City Harvest (Liz R.)
Sorry, City Harvest is not Traditional Church, Lolz...eom (Emmanuel)
The true City (Ivan)
Impressive (RTC)
What great feats of men to turn the wasteland into a holy masterpiece sanctuary of God! (Ivan)
Reasons??? (RTC)
I believe every building of a new church is a testimony of the members' faith in a great God (Ivan)
I can see that, but can you see this? (RTC)
In times like these (Ivan)
Living in the Old? (RTC)
The Old and the New (Ivan)
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How well do you know about the churches in Acts times? ++Well enough to come to certain firm conclusions about the church in the first few centuries. Are there buildings for them to meet besides the home churches? ++Well, there was the temple and the synagogues, meant more for preaching to nonbelievers than for church meetings. Then Paul also used the hall of Tyrannus for teaching the believers. But Paul was no resident church pastor dishing out sermons in these meetings. He was an apostle laying the foundation for the church to go on meeting without him. And do you think God dwell in the homes of believers in the NT? ++Like I already said, God dwells in His people, not in edifices made by human hands. God's life finds expression in life, not in things. Are you writing this reply from hearsay? Is it a reliable source? Is it credible? ++I have a library of books on the NT church and history. Which one would you want me to start with? Can you accept archaelogical findings as proof of churches existence in Antioch? Archaelogical excavations at the site (Antakya) have unearthed over 20 ruined churches dating from the 4th century AD. ++And can you accept findings that prior to the 3rd century there was no such thing as church buildings and believers met primarily from house to house? Can I ask you whether is the OT part of the Bible? You might as well throw away the OT as you like it if you don't want to quote from it. ++Another strawman, the same one Emmanuel cooked up. I already said that the OT forms the foundation for the New. And the theology about the church is only to be found in the NT because the church is a new creation that took place after Jesus died, rose, ascended, and sent the Holy Spirit to dwell in the believers' lives. I am not disparaging the OT, I'm telling you to look at the right place for information about the church. You don't have to follow the letter like observing the Levitical laws but you can make applications based on spiritual principles in the OT for our Christian living. ++In the first place you are not supposed to follow the Leviticus rules! You can for certain health reasons (diet) but not for the sake of seeking favour with God. And of course you can follow the examples of godly people in the OT in how they handled the affairs of daily life with God. But when you are talking about church practices, you do not get them from the OT. Remember this point well! If you really want to follow to the letter of Acts, then you might as well preach the gospel like Paul at the marketplace in Singapore You can even go further to pitch up tents as preaching points and places of worship like what the men of God did in the past. ++Another strawman! Since when did I say we should follow Acts to the letter? Have I argued for such things? You need to understand more of the NT era before you can understand why Paul could speak at the marketplace freely. Did Paul always do that? Can you make a case that Paul consistently did this everywhere he went such that it becomes normative even for the rest of the other believers in the NT? If you can, then you are in a position to charge me, and even yourself, for not doing as Paul did. I still see that you are arguing for argument sake. And I may not like to entertain you further. We are all interested in the people and the pastors are building up the living stones with Jesus, the Chief Cornerstone. When we love God and obey Him, we can experience the manifested presence of God in a church building or in a home. ++I see that you are not answering my question, rather you are evading them by alluding to the well-intentions of those who are for the church buildings. My question is "what is the biblical basis for church buildings in the light of the New Covenant and the NT church practices?" Sadly I don't get any answers from you. You cannot differentiate between belief and living? You are wrong to say that our Christian faith is 2000 years old. It is longer than that; I cannot even date it; it originates in the heart of God. We know that Jesus is the fulfillment of the Law and the New has superseded the Old. Are the churches still practising the sacrifice of lambs? These are ludicrous statements. ++As far as I know, Christianity did not exist before Christ came. Of course you can bring it up one level higher and say it was in God's plan all along but that's not what I am wanting to argue with right now. The churches today may not be practising the slaughtering of lambs today but I'm sure you will allude to the OT practices for the following church practices: -church buildings -tithing -salaried pastors -hierarchy in the church -services What I am pointing out is that with modernisation, church buildings, etc have changed. It is not like the old times. I did not say that meeting in homes is irrelevant. Like I have said, you are just arguing for argument sake. If you know the Biblical prophecy re the restoration of the apostolic and the prophetic ministries in the last days to bring about a spotless and wrinkleless church, you would not have made such comments. ++Strange enough, you seem to go along with the popular notion that things are going to get better for everyone in the church and that the church has evolved higher since the first century. Unfortunately, the Bible teaches the reverse. Are you equating the churches of the day with the temple of the Jews? ++No, not me. But I'm sure you would. Not a few folks on this forum have alluded to justifying church buildings on the basis of the believers meeting in the temple grounds. With all the question marks in your statements, I sense that you are unsure of what you are saying. Living in those times, I like to think that under Roman rule, how glorious can those temple be as compared with the Roman buildings. And in touch with realism and architectural progress, these buildings have advanced in design and structure. ++Huh????? I am not an architect or am knowledgeable in architecture, I think it is architecturally sound to have a titanium clad outfit given such a structure of 4-storey down and 4-storey up. The cross is an important symbol of the Christian faith. If you make the cross rotate, do you not think that it will also make heads turn? Can it serve as a talking point to point people to Jesus? I have already said they are believing God for a $43m church building. ++Are these supposed to be biblical reasons? Have you considered the verse in 1 Cor 10:31, whatever we do, do all to the glory of God. What you say is in order and that also includes the building of new CHC which you disagree. Do you know how many have thanked and praised God for the things He has done for the new CHC and give God the glory? At least 13,000 believers including me. They believed God for the impossible and they give glory to God. Can I count you in? ++But please look at the context of 1 Cor 10:31 before you start to justify everything under the sun by embracing all sorts of practices under the word "things". I think it is your last straw to save yourself by harping that the church is an organism. ++If the church is not an organism, then what is it? An organisation? Did any of the apostles teach such an idea? It is true in the Acts times. The Christians met in buildings as well as home cells. ++The early Christians met in buildings that were never set apart as church buildings. The temple was already there, so was the hall of Tyrannus. The church is not precluded from using these places where feasible for the occasional large meetings. But nowhere do you find effort expended to construct a meeting place! Many times, the Bible use buildings to illustrate human lives. ++That's analogy. When the Bible mention the church at Antioch, Corinth, etc, what do you make out of these? ++Simply refers to the Christians in these geographical areas. Likewise when you say CHC you know the believers are meeting at a building at No. 1, Jurong West St 91. But when you say the Church of Jesus Christ, we mean all believers in Christ who form the body of Christ, the Head of the Church. ++I'm not denying that believers meet at the church premises. I'm questioning the practice of church buildings. You can still practise the Christian life and the dynamics of the church life in our modern settings inclusive of high tech buildings which you try to avoid. ++Perhaps you are not aware or exposed to the effects of institutional church practices on church life. You are again avoiding church buildings though there is an all-inclusive word "things" in Heb 11:1 and also in Heb 10:24,25 not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together. ++Maybe you can tell me how Heb 10:24,25 justify building a $43m church building just to assemble together? Like I said before, we need not follow the letter but the spiritual principles to operate the works of God or to do His business. CHC need not follow what the church at Antioch did per se. They are free to train up Christian workers or missionaries in their School of Theology to supply the need for trained Christian workers from other countries. It is in order. ++But perhaps you never asked why the early church did what they did. Maybe the question you should ask is, why did you do things differently? Like I said before, we need not follow the letter, but the spiritual principles in matters pertaining to seeking the welfare of those who are needy. This is a separate topic altogether which I will not dwell at length here. ++You speak as if NT practices were void of spiritual principles. I tell you, the NT practice best express the spiritual principles of church life more than our touted modern way. |
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Messages
Outline:
I am... by Ivan, 2001, Dec 29
What about my questions? by RTC, 2001, Dec 29
I try... by Ivan, 2001, Dec 29
Place of worship???? by RTC, 2001, Dec 30
I think... by Ivan, 2001, Dec 30
It is heartening.... by Ivan, 2001, Dec 31
Best of both worlds?? by RTC, 2001, Dec 31
RTC: Return To Christ by Ivan, 2002, Jan 01
Already have by RTC, 2002, Jan 02
On "house of God" by Ivan, 2002, Jan 03
No house of God by RTC, 2002, Jan 03
Of course happier up there by RTC, 2001, Dec 31
RTC by John Doe 666, 2001, Dec 31
Church in my home by RTC, 2002, Jan 02
May I.... by John Doe 666, 2002, Jan 02
Here's some info by RTC, 2002, Jan 02
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