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church in Jurong West vicinity 
City Harvest (Liz R.)
Sorry, City Harvest is not Traditional Church, Lolz...eom (Emmanuel)
The true City (Ivan)
Impressive (RTC)
What great feats of men to turn the wasteland into a holy masterpiece sanctuary of God! (Ivan)
Reasons??? (RTC)
I believe every building of a new church is a testimony of the members' faith in a great God (Ivan)
I can see that, but can you see this? (RTC)
In times like these (Ivan)
Living in the Old? (RTC)
The Old and the New (Ivan)
reply (RTC)
I am... (Ivan)
What about my questions? (RTC)
I try... (Ivan)
Place of worship???? (RTC)
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YOU++Because there's no such things as places of worship under the NT! It is simply unbiblical to say "this is a place of worship" when we are under the new covenant. It flies in the face of Scripture to get everyone to give so much to something for which the NT gives no sanction to.
ME: I think you will be happier to be in heaven where you can see the city whose buider and maker is God and where God dwells since you cannot accept a building or a home used as a place of worship. But if you are in no hurry to be in heaven, you can still experience it on earth. Do you want to know? Let me ask you who gives them the power to get wealth? If you know the answer, you would not have said "it flies in the face of Scripture to get everyone to give so much..." On the contrary, you will praise God for it. YOU++Again the loaded term "following to the letter", probably used to try and paint me in a legalistic picture. Why do you do that when I have already explained myself? ME: Are you beginning to feel legalistic about what you are holding on to re such thinking. Why are you still avoiding such church buildings or places of worship? Is it because of your past unfulfilled expectation or experience by the way they do church or conduct worship service? We can seek God's wisdom and rely on the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us to give us creativity in worship matters. I am only concerned that you get into such position that you command things to be done or not in man's ways for eg not allowing people to participate in this forum on Sunday for it is the Lord's Day. YOU++Can you explain what you mean above? Are you able to articulate what I believe about church life concerning the first century? ME: I am perturbed by your fix position of living out the church life before the 4th century AD. You may be missing on what God intends for us to experience the glorious church life in our times which every prophet from the beginning longed to see and things which angels desire to look into. God is going to do it. It is not man's doing. For those who love God, there has never been a greater day to be alive. The Lord has saved his best wine for last. YOU++It is always very tempting to see such changes on a superficial level and say it is good.But are you aware of the reasons for the changes, the effects of the changes on church life? Do you know what was lost when the church traded her organic nature for an organisation mold? Do you know what was lost when the church gave up houshold relationships for hierarchical relationships? As in the past, the church today wants to uncritically use the things of the world to achieve certain ends, without thinking them through with Scriptures. Things become justifiable simply on pragmatic grounds disguised under "world evangelism". ME: You seem to hide your arguments behind high sounding phrases which are empty and providing no answers for anybody's guess. What are the things of the world that do not belong to God the Creator of the whole universe for the Bible says, "The earth is the Lord's and its fullness thereof." What is wrong about using what God gives for "every good and every perfect gift is from above..." You seem unpragmatic about using things on pragmatic grounds under guise of "on holy grounds" which grounds you find them acceptable. I think you also cannot accept the idea of using church building to provide for tuition to needy students under the guise of evangelism, etc. You cannot separate the holy from the pragmatic. YOU++You are wrong. House churches were forbidden after the 4th century because the state-church would not tolerate believers not meeting under their auspices. Those who did so in defiance of the law were conveniently named heretics and persecuted. You can read about this in the "Pilgrim Church". ME: Do you know in Communist countries like in China, with the existence of state churches, what happen to those who do not subscribe to the whims and fancies and control of the state? Do they not meet underground in home cells. Are you so naive to think otherwise though not reported in the "Pilgrim Church". YOU++I recognise a church as a body of believers. But I do not recognise the church structure as biblical. As far as Scriptures are concerned, it goes against Jesus' words when the church structure is seen as a pyramid. Secondly, pastors were never used as titles, but seen as functions. The language of diakonos was never official, but functional. Thirdly, why do away with elders and deacons and institute our own brand of leadership forms? What right do we have to improve upon God's "pattern" of church life as revealed and practiced as normative during the first three centuries? ME: You are smart enough to recognise a church as a body of believers and yet refuse to see the church structure which comprises believers including the Pastors. I know of Pyramid game but it is a reverse Pyramid when we apply it in the Kingdom of God which was well-understood by the CHC Pastors who have demonstrated their understanding of serving when the need arises before my very eyes. I am sure they know the differences between what is functional and their roles and responsibilities without being hierachical or at worst,dictatorial. I like to think that the normative has given way to what is functional. YOU++It sounds so harmless to say it is only a building mah. But I can tell you this. Today CHC is synonymous with the building located at Jurong West. Loyalty is given to that building. Any attack on it is seen as a direct attack on God Himself. People will fight to defend the building against the "opposition", and yet they say "it's just a building mah!" And like all church buildings are designed to do, meetings are styled in a performer-spectator mode, the only thing the congregation knows to do is to respond to those on the stage. Whatever happens to 1 Cor 14:26? Where is mutual participation? Sadly it is relegated to the cell group meetings (which is very much like a mini-service) where it also hardly takes place. And it is true that church life for many believers consist of that 1 hours of exciting and pulsating experience called the worship service. And done in a church building, it is seen as the epitome of corporate worship. But is this the picture we see in the NT? ME: What you say may not be what you see or don't see. Are you becoming an extremist in your thinking which is a dangerous ground to tread. This is what the Chief Terrorist like the world to think that America's attack on terrorism is an attack on Islam. How can we accept this kind of reasoning which is utterly flawed. Are we so naive like yourself to equate God with the building? Have we not read reports of church building in USA being wrecked by Twister while the congregation was spared? Which is more important: lives saved or building? Of course, lives for the building can be rebuilt. You really miss out on the Spirit-filled, Spirit-led corporate worship with the manifested presence of God in the midst of His people. Or are you referring to the traditional service where the congregation respond on the promptings of the worship leader which I had experienced it myself. We are seeing and very much involved in worshipping His Majesty now in our times. YOU++Let's face reality. Without the buildings and the programs planned out, do believers know what it means to function when they gather? Do you know what it means to meet under the Headship of Christ and practice 1 Cor 14:26 when, say, 6 of you come together? I can guarantee you this, it will be the most miserable hour of existence in a meeting because no one is comfortable in a meeting where nobody takes charge. I speak from experience, not just mine, but many others as well. I have been in many cell groups for many years and everywhere it is the same. Someone designated "leader" must take charge. People cringe without an "agenda". Spontaneous expression of 1 Cor 14:26 is something unheard of. ME: No wonder you are missing the true dimension of Christian worship because you are still locked in your thinking and positions. What we experience corporately can be had at cell level. If the Holy Spirit is still active and God still inhabits the praises of His people and the believers yield to the Holy Spirit's leading, we can reach the high point in Christian worship whether corporately or at cell level. My friend, the best is yet to be. Let's press forward and upward in Christ. YOU++Here's the better prescription: give the church back to the Lord. Let man's methods give way to the cross and to the Holy Spirit. Let's start living by divine life rather than organisational "artificial" life. ME: Let's thank God for giving us life to enjoy all things here on earth. You can have heaven on earth here if you don't get stuck in your thinking and positions. I am not heading your way. How about you? You need not reply to me. It is for your reflection.
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Messages
Outline:
It is heartening.... by Ivan, 2001, Dec 31
Best of both worlds?? by RTC, 2001, Dec 31
RTC: Return To Christ by Ivan, 2002, Jan 01
Already have by RTC, 2002, Jan 02
On "house of God" by Ivan, 2002, Jan 03
No house of God by RTC, 2002, Jan 03
Of course happier up there by RTC, 2001, Dec 31
RTC by John Doe 666, 2001, Dec 31
Church in my home by RTC, 2002, Jan 02
May I.... by John Doe 666, 2002, Jan 02
Here's some info by RTC, 2002, Jan 02
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