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Of course happier up there 
church in Jurong West vicinity 
City Harvest (Liz R.)
Sorry, City Harvest is not Traditional Church, Lolz...eom (Emmanuel)
The true City (Ivan)
Impressive (RTC)
What great feats of men to turn the wasteland into a holy masterpiece sanctuary of God! (Ivan)
Reasons??? (RTC)
I believe every building of a new church is a testimony of the members' faith in a great God (Ivan)
I can see that, but can you see this? (RTC)
In times like these (Ivan)
Living in the Old? (RTC)
The Old and the New (Ivan)
reply (RTC)
I am... (Ivan)
What about my questions? (RTC)
I try... (Ivan)
Place of worship???? (RTC)
I think... (Ivan)
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I think you will be happier to be in heaven where you can see the city whose buider and maker is God and where God dwells since you cannot accept a building or a home used as a place of worship. ++Would you not be happier in heaven? Paul longed to be with Christ. So do I. Why wouldn’t you? I have no qualms about using a building or a home for a meeting place where it suits the purposes of the Lord, but I do not see a justification for setting aside a building or home as a sanctuary for the Lord, and to pour huge resources into such edifices which could be better channeled to more worthy causes. Furthermore, I have already told you that in the New Covenant there is longer any place of worship. To look upon a home or a building as a place of worship is inconsistent with NT revelation. But if you are in no hurry to be in heaven, you can still experience it on earth. Do you want to know? Let me ask you who gives them the power to get wealth? If you know the answer, you would not have said "it flies in the face of Scripture to get everyone to give so much..." On the contrary, you will praise God for it. ++I see you are again evading the issue by sidetracking into others. I’m questioning the biblical basis for church buildings and you are trying to justify it by saying that if the money comes from God, then surely it is OK. You have left the question “what is the biblical basis for a church building” unanswered since the day we commenced our discussion. Are you beginning to feel legalistic about what you are holding on to re such thinking. Why are you still avoiding such church buildings or places of worship? Is it because of your past unfulfilled expectation or experience by the way they do church or conduct worship service? ++I’m saying that it is you who wants to project me as legalistic in the eyes of readers by your use of words. I don’t feel an inch of the legalism you accuse me of. I do not shudder when I enter church buildings occasionally. And yes, I am not satisfied with the way the worship service is conducted, not just in my former church, but in all others as well. Is it because the music is bad? No. A dull band? No. A boring preacher? No, but sometimes. But what I am upset is that there is a blatant disregard for mutual ministry as prescribed by Paul in 1 Cor 14:26. This will always be a litmus test for the gathering of the saints. What usually happens on Sundays is this: One person prepares the songs and the whole church sings along. Then one person preaches the sermon and the whole church just sit there and listen. After two hours people leave the pews and head their own ways. Did 1 Cor 14:26 take place, or am I missing something? We can seek God's wisdom and rely on the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us to give us creativity in worship matters. I am only concerned that you get into such position that you command things to be done or not in man's ways for eg not allowing people to participate in this forum on Sunday for it is the Lord's Day. ++Your concern is unfounded because you do not understand what I am talking about. Am I commanding things? No, I am showing you what the Scriptures say and desire that we follow the practices of the NT. Certainly you do not NEED to or HAVE to if you refuse. But I dare say we miss out on what God can do if we do it His way. I am perturbed by your fix position of living out the church life before the 4th century AD. You may be missing on what God intends for us to experience the glorious church life in our times which every prophet from the beginning longed to see and things which angels desire to look into. God is going to do it. It is not man's doing. For those who love God, there has never been a greater day to be alive. The Lord has saved his best wine for last. ++That’s very positive thinking talk, but has no biblical support. You quote 1 Pet 1:12, but that is referring to the revelation of Jesus Christ, not the church building. And there is no Scriptural basis for saying that in our times God is saving his best wine, much less that the church building is part of that wine. You seem to hide your arguments behind high sounding phrases which are empty and providing no answers for anybody's guess. ++Like what? Please explain. What are the things of the world that do not belong to God the Creator of the whole universe for the Bible says, "The earth is the Lord's and its fullness thereof." What is wrong about using what God gives for "every good and every perfect gift is from above..." ++Am I questioning in a sweeping way about using things that God provides? The answer is no. I am simply asking, “what’s the biblical basis for a church building” which you fail to provide an answer. You seem unpragmatic about using things on pragmatic grounds under guise of "on holy grounds" which grounds you find them acceptable. I think you also cannot accept the idea of using church building to provide for tuition to needy students under the guise of evangelism, etc. You cannot separate the holy from the pragmatic. ++What can be more pragmatic than what the early church did, and which many are doing now? Most people live in homes. Meeting in homes has never been less than pragmatic, not unless you have the penchant for wanting to keep people under one roof, not willing to adopt the house to house pattern of the early church. And please, don’t try to give lame justification for the church building by appealing to the needy. The needy don’t need a church building. The ways of God does not fall under man’s pragmatism. For example, talk about decision making in the church. The current way is for the church leaders to decide and the congregation accept. This makes for fast decision, very efficient at getting things done. You either put up or shut up, or else go somewhere else. This is management style. God’s way is that of consensus. Everyone affected by the decision has a say. It may be slow in getting things done, but it is efficient in forging close relationships and close understanding. That’s the way the early church did it. Do you know in Communist countries like in China, with the existence of state churches, what happen to those who do not subscribe to the whims and fancies and control of the state? Do they not meet underground in home cells. Are you so naive to think otherwise though not reported in the "Pilgrim Church". ++FYI, the one who wrote about the Pilgrim Church died early this century, therefore it does not cover the China underground church. But how does the church in China goes against what I am talking about? You are smart enough to recognise a church as a body of believers and yet refuse to see the church structure which comprises believers including the Pastors. ++It’s not about being smart. It’s about being biblical. I must recognise everyone who confesses Christ as part of the church. But I do not see the institutional church structure as biblical. Such system is bereft of biblical support. I know of Pyramid game but it is a reverse Pyramid when we apply it in the Kingdom of God which was well-understood by the CHC Pastors who have demonstrated their understanding of serving when the need arises before my very eyes. I am sure they know the differences between what is functional and their roles and responsibilities without being hierachical or at worst,dictatorial. I like to think that the normative has given way to what is functional. ++What you like to think it is does not meet up to reality. If I were to ask you, who is the top person in CHC, can you give me a name? I’m sure you can. In fact it is clearly seen in the organisation chart. Do you see an inverted pyramid or do you have to hang yourself upside down to see that? I have nothing personally against the SP, it is the system that I am referring to. So you do not need to jump to SP’s defence to defend his honour as I am not speaking about him. Also, I would also like you to explain how someone can be in a hierarchy and not act in accordance with his status in that hierarchy. Even if he goes against the setup and act nonhierarchically, the members would not. They will still see him as one-up above them. What you say may not be what you see or don't see. Are you becoming an extremist in your thinking which is a dangerous ground to tread. ++Can you define what you mean by extremist in my thinking? This is what the Chief Terrorist like the world to think that America's attack on terrorism is an attack on Islam. How can we accept this kind of reasoning which is utterly flawed. Are we so naive like yourself to equate God with the building? Have we not read reports of church building in USA being wrecked by Twister while the congregation was spared? Which is more important: lives saved or building? ++That seems to be more reflective of your thinking than mine. It is your tendency to equate my “attack” on the institutional church system with attacking the church and God. And whether you equate God or the church with the building can be seen in the arguments you use to defend the church building. Maybe you would like to reread your own postings to see that. Of course, lives for the building can be rebuilt. You really miss out on the Spirit-filled, Spirit-led corporate worship with the manifested presence of God in the midst of His people. Or are you referring to the traditional service where the congregation respond on the promptings of the worship leader which I had experienced it myself. We are seeing and very much involved in worshipping His Majesty now in our times. ++By what reference do you measure whether a service is Spirit-filled and Spirit-led? That people speak in tongues? Or that there is a “high” during the worship? You want to know how the NT Spirit-led worship should be like, read 1 Cor 12-14. No wonder you are missing the true dimension of Christian worship because you are still locked in your thinking and positions. What we experience corporately can be had at cell level. If the Holy Spirit is still active and God still inhabits the praises of His people and the believers yield to the Holy Spirit's leading, we can reach the high point in Christian worship whether corporately or at cell level. My friend, the best is yet to be. Let's press forward and upward in Christ. ++If I am missing it, then I’m afraid the majority of Christendom in Singapore also missed it, because I have attended the same services they go to for many many years. And the format is always the same everywhere. Now I am not saying that God is absent from such meetings. I believe God blesses those whose hearts to Him are genuine, even if their expression of church life is not biblical. My friend, indeed the best is yet to be. But it doesn’t have to be a “yet to be”. Church life, God’s way, can be experienced today when we seek His ways. Let's thank God for giving us life to enjoy all things here on earth. You can have heaven on earth here if you don't get stuck in your thinking and positions. I am not heading your way. How about you? You need not reply to me. It is for your reflection. ++I am as stuck in my thinking as you are as stuck in yours. Neither am I going back to the trappings of the institutional church. Having left the institutional church, I am now seeking a biblical experience of church life with other like-minded believers. And though we have left the system, we have not left our brothers and sisters who are still settled in the IC. They are still our brethren, and together we are one in Christ. |
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RTC by John Doe 666, 2001, Dec 31
Church in my home by RTC, 2002, Jan 02
May I.... by John Doe 666, 2002, Jan 02
Here's some info by RTC, 2002, Jan 02
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